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Author | Topic: We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Dan Carroll responds to me:
quote:quote: The societal and financial forces that required him to allow smoking in the bar. Do you really think a non-smoking bar could catch on in a municipality that doesn't ban smoking in public places?
quote: Who said anything about pleasant? We do have laws preventing the deliberate infliction of harm upon workers.
quote: No, but we do what we can to make sure that they aren't exposed unnecessarily. If you're going to mine coal, you necessarily have to put up with the geologic hazards of digging in the earth such as coal dust and natural gas pockets. When was the last time you needed to smoke to have a drink or serve a drink?
quote:quote: You're missing the point. You were the one that pointed out that financial straits can put someone in a position where they have few choices about what to do for money and thus might become a prostitute. It isn't because he wants to...it's because he has to. Similarly, financial straits can put an establishment in a position where they have to put their workers at risk. They may all want to make things safer, but they will be unable to remain in business if they do. This means that the workers have no choice but to be subjected to a risk that is not a physical necessity.
quote: How does cancer relate to "uncomfortable"? Last time I checked, nobody died from being around gay people all day. They have died from being around smokers all day. If you want to smoke and risk contracting cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc., you go right ahead. You do not have the right to take other people with you. So unless we're going to say that businesses have the right to restrict employment on the basis of one's status as a smoker, then the regulation has to fall upon the smoker to keep it to himself.
quote: No, it wouldn't. It is precisely because "uncomfortable" is a far cry from health-damaging. Nobody died being around gay people all day. They have died from being around smokers all day.
quote: So it's moral to put other people at risk when they have no choice in the matter to avoid you, who are putting them at risk? We shouldn't put lane markers on freeways in order to make driving safer? We shouldn't control pollution emissions or safety standards?
quote: Indeed. That's why it's called a "bar." They are in the business of selling alcohol. Thus, you expect to find people drinking there.
quote: And when the bar wants to become a tobacco shop, then they can make that their argument.
quote: Really? Where? Where in the liquor license does it talk about smoking? When did it become mandatory to smoke in order to drink or serve alcohol?
quote: And put everybody who has no choice but to work at a bar at risk from the smokers.
quote:quote: In and of itself? No. I don't see a problem with the concept of money for sex. However, the way it is practiced makes the "noble" prostitutes few and far between. Life is not like the movies and the hooker with a heart of gold doesn't exist.
quote:quote: So if enough people are willing to pay money, you should be allowed to kill people?
quote: But being around comic books won't kill you.
quote: The part where simply being there can kill you due not to the actions of the management or workers or product but due to the customers. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
dan Carroll responds to me:
quote:quote: Precisely. That's my point. The owner likes to pay his rent, so he must put his workers at risk because the customers can't seem to control themselves.
quote: No, not really. I'm balancing rights: Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.
quote:quote: And yet, California doesn't seem to have suffered for it.
quote: But what about the workers? Why does your desire to smoke overrule their right not to be put at risk of death just to earn a paycheck? Especially when the job they were hired on to do has nothing to do with smoking?
quote:quote: By not allowing any smoking. In an ideal world, a smoker would not smoke in public since he knows that his smoke will affect others and thus, we wouldn't have to worry about it. But alas, we have found that a matter of etiquette has been so trampled that it must become a matter of law.
quote: The thing is, there is no way to have both. Societal functioning can only allows for one or the other, not both.
quote:quote: What does that have to do with anything? When you drink, you need to drink out of a container of some sort. But I fail to see how that compares to doing something else at the same time.
quote:quote: That's precisely right. They can't stay in business unless they allow smoking. But to do so puts innocent lives at risk. Therefore, since a person's right to live overrides a person's right to smoke anywhere he wants, we're going to have to restrict smoking.
quote: No. But as I said before, a bar is in the business of selling alcohol, not tobacco.
quote: Because the workers who want a safe working environment cannot find one. This part of the thread started when you asked about the morality of what you did. I pointed out that you were exposing other people to the harmful effects of your smoke. You responded by saying that the existence of an ashtray was assent. I am simply pointing out that such is not justified. They don't really have a choice in the matter.
quote:quote: Nobody died from being around a jukebox. People do die from being around smokers.
quote: Nobody died from being around a pool table. People do die from being around smokers.
quote: Hardly. A business has more interests to cater to than just the customer. There are also the workers. Are you suggesting that it is allowable to restrict employment in a non-tobacco related business on the basis of one's status as a smoker?
quote:quote: They dragged you into the bar and made you smoke? From what I can tell, unless there is a law that is preventing you from smoking, the only person who controls whether you smoke is you.
quote:quote: When all the establishments are smoking bars, how does one choose differently? I seem to recall another thread on this vary same topic: How can there be selection of any significance among identical items?
quote: Precisely. Just because there's an ashtray there does not mean you have their acceptance.
quote:quote: I'm a lot of fun. I don't even drink. It's true, I don't go to bars very often since I don't drink and don't smoke and don't like being around smokers or drunks. Having fun has very little to do with whether or not one smokes or drinks.
quote: No, not at all. If you want to drink and smoke, then do it someplace where you aren't putting someone else's life in danger without their permission. The existence of the ashtray is not assent. They don't have a choice. If they don't allow you to smoke, they don't stay in business and like you say, they gotta pay the rent. The point behind a bar is to serve you alcohol. That doesn't include attempting to kill your waitstaff.
quote:quote: Who said the person was willing? When the only place to work is one that is filled with smoke, you don't really have much of a choice, do you?
quote:quote: Oh, you mean the management and workers actually had a meeting about this? When was the last time you heard of the management asking the waitstaff if they wanted the place to go smokeless? You're a waiter. You want to pay the rent. Where do you go to work when all of the establishments are smoking establishments because that is the only way to stay in business? And all because the smokers are being incredibly rude.... Like I said, this interaction is because you asked what was immoral in your actions. It was where you assumed that everybody was OK with your smoking and, without asking, forced them to risk their lives for your pleasure. No, the presence of an ashtray is not assent. It is there because it has to be there, not because we know the staff wants it to be there. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Dan Carroll responds to me:
quote: What makes you think you've been invited? The existence of the ashtray is not an invitation.
quote:quote: You're the one swinging, it is your responsibility to control your actions. Nobody else can do it for you. I don't have telepathic control over your brain to cause you to stop swinging your fist. I have just as much right to be there as you do. Would you mind if I urinated in your drink? Then what makes you think others want to breathe your smoke. The fact that other people are doing it doesn't mean you have permission. The existence of the ashtray is not permission, either.
quote:quote: Because the market is not perfect.
quote: I'm not flipping at all. Perhaps you missed my direct statement: You can have one or the other but not both. That is, either all the places can be smoking or all the places can be smoke-free. It is an unviable position to be one when everybody else is the other. The bars in California are smoke-free because there is a law preventing them from allowing smoking. Business is just fine.
quote:quote: I don't know how many times I can explain the concept of a bar, and why it is not a smoking room.
quote: Right back at you. Where in the liquor license does it talk about smoking?
quote:quote:quote: I did. That's why I wrote them. Did it occur to you that perhaps your premise was mistaken? That you are starting from an untenable position?
quote:quote: You'd be wrong. Bars are public places. Just because it's a private business does not mean it is the same as a private domicile. A bar does business with the public. If it wants to be private, then it must become a private club. But the moment it becomes open to the public, then it must abide by public regulations.
quote: How do you think California and New York City managed to get the bars smoke free? Asking really nicely? Of course not. They passed a law.
quote:quote: Because the smokers won't stop smoking.
quote:quote: No, I'm being quite serious. I asked you a direct question: What does that have to do with anything? Seeing as how if I serve you a drink, it will need to be in a container of some kind and thus I should consider providing a pleasing container for you have to do with smoking?
quote:quote: Business hasn't dropped in California. Despite all the whining from various camps that said that it would destroy business, there was no drop and, if I recall correctly, business actually increased.
quote:quote: What does that have to do with anything? You're right: A bar is not a liquor store. But a bar is also not a smoking room. You do understand the difference, yes? A bar is in the business of alcohol. What does smoking have to do with alcohol?
quote: (*blink!*) You didn't just say that, did you? Where in the liquor license does it mention smoking?
quote:quote: (*chuckle*) Care to answer the point, then? Or are snide comments the only thing you have? When was the last time somebody died while playing pool or listening to music? Come on...but those brain cells to work (assuming they're not dead from oxygen deprivation).
quote:quote: But if you don't actually answer it directly, then it isn't really an answer. Here is what you said:
Or on the basis of one's willingness to work at the establishment? Last I checked, every last business in the country restricts their hiring policies on that litmus test. Ever since we banned slavery. Note: Willingness does not equal desire. So tell me, how does that answer the question? I asked you a yes-or-no question and you responded with 40 words, none of which were "yes" or "no." Please explain to me how that is an answer. Instead, it is avoiding the question. If you don't answer the question and continue to make a point that begs the question which you avoided, then you will find the same question asked.
quote:quote: Yeah, and prostitutes can get out of the business whenever they want, too. Are you really that naive?
quote:quote: Really? There was a sign?
quote: You mean by being forced to conform to a skewed market is a free choice? How is a coerced response a legitimate response?
quote: Yes. But when did your business of buying a drink become a business of smoking?
quote: You're ignoring the greater economic environment. They can't offer you a service if they're not in business, now can they? And since the business climate requires smoking, they don't have a choice.
quote: No, they don't have a choice about that. If they don't let you smoke, they won't remain in business when surrounded by business that allow it.
quote: The question is not about you being "allowed" to smoke. The question is whether or not you are "wanted" to smoke. A bar is a public place. If you're going to smoke where other people are, it is only polite to ask them if they don't mind.
quote: Hey, if you think I'm overbearing when I consider it rude not to ask before smoking, then I guess you won't find me rude when I decide to piss in your drink without asking.
quote:quote: Come with me and see.
quote:quote: That doesn't mean they want smoking. You do understand that a coerced response is not a legitimate one, yes?
quote: Does the word "coercion" mean nothing to you? If they don't let you smoke, they go out of business.
quote:quote: It's recognition of a reality. You're going to smoke whether they like it or not. If they want to remain in business, they have to deal with your smoking. Since I'm sure they don't want the bar burning down, they're going to try and give you a place to put your ashes. How does that translate to them wanting you to smoke? Do you not understand the process of, "We would rather you didn't, but if you are going to, then..."?
quote:quote: Right. That's why so many non-smoking bars exist in municipalities that don't restrict smoking in public places. That's why so many non-smoking restaurants exist in municipalities that don't restrict smoking in public places. The problem is that smokers smoke everywhere. You can't get away from it. Because the smokers haven't figured out how to ask before lighting up, and because non-smokers have been too pathetic to ask them to put it out, and given the recent history when such a huge percentage of the population smoked, we find ourselves in a society where there is no way to get away from smokers. So since a non-smoking bar can't survive surrounded by smoking bars, how do you find it a "free choice" to permit smoking in a bar?
quote: And thus, they don't pay their own rents. Yeah, that's not coercion. Do it our way or starve. That's a real free choice.
quote: But a bar isn't in the business of tobacco. It's in the business of alcohol. Where in the liquor license does it mention smoking?
quote:quote: Right, because he doesn't really need the job. He has all the money in the world and is simply taking this position as a hobby. He doesn't need to earn a paycheck in order to eat, pay the rent, pay the bills, etc.
quote: Right. You seem to think that all options are equally available and equally viable.
quote:quote: And, of course, they didn't need the job in order to pay the rent. They were perfectly qualified for any other job out there. Why if they wanted to, they could get hired at the local computer company and program software. I find it puzzling that you don't understand this since you were the one that brought up people turning to prostitution not because they want to but because they have to.
quote:quote: And how does one become qualified for those jobs? And how does one pay for the training required to become qualified for those jobs?
quote: Yes, you need to think more about it. What is the population of waitstaff like? Why are they in that position. While there are plenty of people who like tending bar and waiting tables, do you really think that they're the majority? Or perhaps waitstaff positions are filled more with people who find that it's the only job they can get. Nah, couldn't be. All options are equally available and equally viable.
quote:quote: Did you ask the rest of the waitstaff? What about the rest of the patrons? Just because the barkeep doesn't mind doesn't mean everybody else is of the same persuasion. A bar is not a smoking room. It's a bar.
quote: Oh, please...you're not about to say that a car pollutes and thus that makes it OK to smoke in another person's face, are you? But yes, I do. What makes you think it has any emissions?
quote: The waitstaff can walk out of a bar? They are there because they need the money.
quote: Indeed. But do you need to transport yourself and goods from one place to the next in front of other people? Do you need to smoke in front of others? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Dan Carroll responds to me:
quote:quote: Oh, I saw that. The bartender was the only other person in the room, then? No other waitstaff? No other patrons? It was just you, your girlfriend, and the bartender? Knock yourselves out. Since your smoke doesn't know that it's supposed to stick around you, your girlfriend, and the bartender, you're going to have to ask that of every other person in the place and then worry about the new people coming in before your smoke has had a chance to dissipate.
quote: Again, it was just you, your girlfriend and the barkeep? Knock yourselves out. Were there other people? Did you ask them?
quote: (*chuckle*) I see. I disagree with you and somehow that makes me angry. You were the one that jumped on the defensive. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
quote: You can buy cigarettes at the grocery store here in California. But you're not allowed to smoke in the stores. You can still buy cigarettes in the bars here, too, but you're not allowed to smoke in the bar. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Since we are drifting from the main topic, I'm going to try and cut this down. If there's something you feel you want addressed, please bring it up again:
Dan Carroll responds to me:
quote: Is there a non-smoking bar they can go to? If not, then yes, they are coerced into visiting a bar filled with smoke. "You can have any color you want so long as it's black." That's not a choice. That's forcing.
quote:quote: You know the answer to this already: A bar is not a smoking club. A bar serves the public. Since your smoking causes death in other people, they have every right to ask you to refrain from engaging in that behaviour which puts other people at significant, non-trivial risk.
quote: Of course not. But the bar is open to the public and as members of the public, we have to come to a compromise between two conflicting desires. It would appear that one should tend toward the behaviour that isn't going to kill anybody.
quote: You've seemingly forgotten the economic climate in which the bar exists. What the owner wants may very well be irrelevant.
quote: What rancor? Be specific. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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