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Author | Topic: We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Yes... assuming their mother and father are capable of living together without making one another miserable. However, children are generally better if everyone in the house loves one another, regardless of what number is there.
quote: Gotta be alive before it can be killed.
quote: These would be moral failures... how, exactly?There's a difference between "this sucks" and "this is evidence of moral decline." quote: Things sure were better in my father's day, when my grandfather would beat the holy living crap out of him. Man, I wish my dad had punched some sense into me like that.
quote: Contracting a disease is a moral failure? I should go say some hail marys for that flu I got last month, I guess.
quote: What exactly would you say the ramifications of drugs are? I'm not talking about the illegal activities of drug dealers (which would be stopped by legalization) but about drug use itself. Basically, why is drug use immoral?
quote: Which brings us back to drug legalization...
quote: Yeah, I'll grant you that. Why we still push bullshit moral codes on kids that teach them what an abomination they are is beyond me.
quote: Right. That's why labor unions were so unnecessary, back when businesses were so benign. Personally, I like to think corporations have come a long way from "What's that? You got your hand cut off? You're fired. Send your 11-year-old in to work tomorrow if you still want a paycheck."
quote: Consider them pondered. What else you got?
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Yeah, brave stand on a contraversial issue. For God's sake, who likes divorce? "Hey Bill, got me a divorce this week!" "Frank, you dog, that's your third this month! Way to go!" Honestly. Does anyone see divorce as something other than an occasionally necessary but unfortunate circumstance?
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
This is what happens when you teach people that if they want to have sex, they have to get married.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Message board rule #502:Insults are easier than responses.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Fun little ancient Rome factoid... the legend goes that Romulus and Remus were abandoned and raised by a female wolf. What most people who hear the legend miss is that the Latin word for "female wolf" is the same as the word for "prostitute."
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Hee hee! Unfortunately, nobody can be told what the vulva is. You'll just have to see for yourself.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Why do you consider these things immoral?
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
You know, let me make this a little clearer.
Last night, my girlfriend and I went to a bar with some friends. We split a couple of pitchers, and I went through about half a pack of cigarettes. At one point my girlfriend snuck out back for a joint. At the end of the night, we went home, had sex, and went to sleep. In other words, between us we hit every single one of the "immoral" items on your list there. I'd like to know exactly what we did that was morally wrong, and why it was morally wrong. Whether you did it knowingly or not, if you're going to take a slam at me I'd appreciate it if you'd back it up.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: This is why we must educate our nations youth on how to have good sex. THINK OF THE CHILDREN.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Walked home.
quote: It was a bar. People know before they go in that the place is going to be full of smoke, and they choose to go anyway. As for those immediately at my table, I was with friends who know me, know that I smoke, and I know from prior experience they don't mind.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
However, permission is implied on behalf of the bartender by the fact that he's got an ashtray out. To use the prostitute example, I don't consider soliciting a prostitute to be rape. It may suck for her, but it is voluntary. Similarly, although it may suck for the bartender, there he was offering a service (specifically, a place I can grab a drink and a smoke) and I took him up on it.
In this particular case, the bartender was smoking. So it's kind of academic. But it's still a topic worth addressing.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Hang on... who forced him? Honest. Who put a gun to the guy's head and said, "you must work at this establishment?" Nobody has the right to a pleasant job. Or even an entirely healthy one. We don't demand that coal miners be allowed to do their job without coal or gas leaks, do we?
quote: Ah. Government regulation sets in. To me, it's nasty business for the government to tell a business owner they cannot target a certain demographic. (In the case of bars, smokers.) It's a hop, skip, and a jump from not allowing a person to run a gay bar because it might make potential heterosexual customers or employees uncomfortable. Yes, I know uncomfortable is a far cry from health-damaging. But the legal justification would be the same for both. But screw legislation. It's a separate matter from morality. As you say, the likelihood of a non-smoking bar in an area where there are smoking bars is slim to nil. I hate to sound callous, but tough freakin' titty. Nobody questions whether a smoke-shop should allow indoor smoking. Why? Because they're selling freakin' tobacco! Why the Hell wouldn't they allow, or even encourage the use of tobacco? It's their damn product! Of course they want you to light up! Similarly, a place to smoke is part of a bar's product. If the customers just wanted to drink, beer is cheaper at the liquor store. You're at the bar for environment, for ritual, and for certain amenities such as smoking. If more customers want non-smoking than want smoking, market demands will make sure it happens. It hasn't happened because nobody wants a freakin' bar where you can't smoke, any more than they want a smoke-shop that doesn't sell tobacco. It would be nice if the bartenders could have a place to work that sold the product they wanted to sell. It would also be nice if I could sell my used kleenex for big money. I can't though, and I can't expect others to avoid products more appealing than my used kleenex simply because I want to sell them.
quote: Let me ask you an honest question. Do you think it's immoral to solicit a prostitute? For reasons about bartenders I listed above, I think it's pretty clear that I don't think it's immoral. But I don't want to work from the assumption that you think the same thing.
quote: Welcome to capitalism. Enjoy your stay. If the local comic book store didn't sell comic books, I wouldn't make a stop there every Wednesday. If the local bar didn't provide a place to smoke, I'd take my business elsewhere. What's wrong with that? [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 08-21-2003]
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: Again... he doesn't have to. I don't have to go to work in the morning. I have to pay rent, so I go. If you think that's a fundamental unfairness, you're problem isn't with smoking. It's with the system we live in. But by the logic you're using here, my having to go to work because of economic necessity makes me a slave. It is entirely against my desire to do so, but I am forced by the economic system. I think we can all agree that slavery is wrong, whether the slave is being whipped by his master or not, right? Does this mean I should not have to go to work?
quote: No. It would be a shitty product being offered. That's why bars do allow smoking. It's what their customers want.
quote: How can one run a bar that allows smoking without allowing smoking? The very fact that it is possible to prevent smoking at a bar separates smoking bars and non-smoking bars into separate products. If there smoking is allowed at a bar, it is a smoking bar. Therefore, smoking is necessary to provide the specific service being offered: a smoking bar.
quote: I don't need to drink it out of a glass, either. I could always pour it into a used dog-food can.
quote: 1) This argument falls apart before it begins. "They can't stay in business without allowing smoking! But smoking isn't necessary to their business! So let's take away their right to allow smoking, which is required for them to stay in business!" 2) What if nobody in the town likes alcohol? Do we bemoan the fact that the bar will go out of business if they offer a product nobody wants? Similarly, if the product they are offering is a non-smoking bar, and nobody wants a non-smoking bar, why exactly are we crying for them?
quote: The jukebox isn't a physical necessity either. Neither is the pool table. Or any live music they bring in. Or other people. Or any of the reasons a person goes to a bar. Technically, they could just set up feeding troughs that let you insert a dollar, have a single shot of vodka spat into your mouth, and you could swallow and leave. That'd be one shitty bar, though. I can't imagine anyone would want to go there. But those automatic shot machines are certainly better for the bartender's back than standing behind the bar all day.
quote: It doesn't. I acknolwedge that one sentence later. However, telling a business what demographic they can and cannot target is the same, no matter what demographic it happens to be.
quote: Sure. It's a good thing they came to me and offered the service, huh?
quote: Or on the basis of one's willingness to work at the establishment? Last I checked, every last business in the country restricts their hiring policies on that litmus test. Ever since we banned slavery. Note: Willingness does not equal desire.
quote: You're not much fun at a bar, are you? I mean... if you're trying to suggest the only purpose of a bar is to serve you a drink and then clear you on your way, you can't be much of a bar guy. The businesses which simply give you liquor and send you packing are called "liquor stores". It's a very different buying experience. Bars are a social congregation that centers around alcohol. Liquor stores are a store which sells alcohol.
quote: If the person is willing to be killed? Honestly, I say yes. For instance, I'm in favor of assisted suicide.
quote: The management and workers offered the service. The customers just took them up on it. [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 08-21-2003]
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: For starters, I added a bit to my post while you were typing this. It's about slavery. Go back to it. Secondly, there is no reason to control oneself on a matter where one has been invited to do otherwise.
quote: Get your nose out of my face, you won't get hit.
quote: Then what's the problem? If people will like non-smoking bars, let the market decide. You keep flipping back and forth on whether non-smoking bars are viable. Why do you keep doing that?
quote: I don't know how many times I can explain the concept of a bar, and why it is not a liquor store with seats. It's still in the above posts if you want to read it.
quote:quote: Rrhain, read those two sentences together. Please.
quote: Who said anything about public? Last I checked, bars were private institutions. Did the government colonize our nations bars, and no one told me?
quote: Why not? If smoking isn't necessary to run a bar, why won't non-smoking bars crop up on their own?
quote: Unless you see some appeal in drinking something out of a used dog-food can, I have to assume you're just being obstinate. Please stop doing so.
quote: Gee, for someone so concerned about their livelihood, you don't seem to care much about their livelihood. I thought the fact that economics demanded smoking that made all this necessary in the first place?
quote: And as I said before, there is a difference between a liquor store and a bar. Obviously a bar is in the business of providing a place to smoke, or this wouldn't even be an issue."Stop smoking in there!" "Dude... nobody's smoking in here. Smoking isn't part of a bar." "Oh... okay, go about your business." quote: Look up. The point just went way over your head, but you might still catch it.
quote: I believe I already gave you an answer to this question. Repeating the question won't get you a different answer, and is, if I'm not mistaken, a violation of forum guidelines.
quote: Presumably, they were bound and chained to the bar, then. Otherwise, they have the freedom to leave at any time.
quote: No. They invited me to take part in a service they were offering. I chose to take them up on it. How did they invite me? By having a business that allows smoking. Presumably they do want my business, right? I mean... they're not actively trying to keep me out, and would actually prefer that I (and my money) be there. Correct me if I'm mistaken there. One of the ways in which they have chosen to entice me to come into their bar and partake of their services is to allow smoking. Crazy man that I am, I assume that the fact that they allow me to smoke in their bar means I am allowed to smoke in their bar. Go figure. But apparently, in Rrhainworld, this adds up to rudness and lack of self-control.
quote: Gee, that's not what I asked you. I'm sure you're a very fun guy under the right circumstances. I asked if you were a fun guy at a bar. It was actually a rhetorical question, though; the point was made afterward.
quote: They allow smoking. It is not possible to allow something without giving permission to do it. I mean it is logically impossible.
quote: I guess it was decorative, then? Weird choice for a decoration. Put enough of those knick-knacks out, and people will start thinking smoking is allowed there.
quote: Given my habit of bringing a gun to a bar and holding bartenders hostage, this is true. But for everyone else it's a load of bunk. If they don't want smoking there, they can not allow it. They should be prepared to lose business as a result, though. That's basic business. Again... if I run a store which sells candy, it will do more business than a store which sells used kleenex. I understand that this is horribly unfair to a person who wants to sell used kleenexes. Life sucks, Mr. Kleenex.
quote: I guess my first tip off was when he went to the bar, filled out an application, and accepted the job when it was offered to him. But that's just me, I'm weird like that.
quote: The waitstaff was aware of the fact that the bar allowed smoking when they applied for the job.
quote: Maybe... just maybe... there are jobs in the world other than waiter. I don't want to go on any sort of crazy limb with that one, but it bears thinking about.
quote: I didn't assume anything. The first time I was in that bar, I asked the bartender, "is it cool to smoke in here." He looked at me like I was nuts, and pointed to the ashtray. Why did he look at me like I was nuts? Perhaps because when a bar allows smoking, traditionally it means that they are... wait for it... allowing you to smoke. Crazy concept, I know. One last point. You own a car? Whether a person needs the money or not, they can walk out of a bar. No one can walk out of the planet.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: And incidentally, we got off my personal morality a while ago. If you look back, I mentioned that the bartender was smoking. So even in a world where a man gives me permission to smoke, but I'm meant to somehow read his mind and see if he really means it before doing so, none of this applies to me. The poor man who was being forced to risk his life was also a smoker. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop projecting your personal anger on me.
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