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Author Topic:   THE END OF EVOLUTION?
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 284 (505918)
04-20-2009 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by onifre
04-17-2009 2:00 PM


Re: Evolution is a fraud
onifre writes:
I believe your understanding of the cell may be wrong, as opposed to all of the scientists understanding. Maybe you should question how you've interpreted the evidence, instead of thinking that every single scientist got it wrong.
I have very little understanding of the cell. Biological scientists don't understand the cell either, yet, they are still doing good work.
This is how I see it. We are talking about one of the most complex organizational structures in the known universe; the others being related.
First of all we need a language A. A must have an originator or a generator, A doesn't exist otherwise. We then need a transmitter, which is the natural laws. Entropy is a factor in the natural world so we need a receive the message with all its warts.
We're dead, unless the code that is transmitted has inbuilt error correction.
Inbuilt error correction is not random arrangement.
Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by onifre, posted 04-17-2009 2:00 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by onifre, posted 04-20-2009 12:57 PM LucyTheApe has not replied
 Message 158 by Taq, posted 04-20-2009 5:13 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 284 (505920)
04-20-2009 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
04-17-2009 2:46 PM


Re: Understanding Information Theory
Percy+ writes:
But let's not forget your original claims, which were confused statements involving 2LOT, entropy and information. The reality is that the constraints of 2LOT and information theory can both be expressed in terms of entropy, and there is nothing in either one preventing the creation of new information. It is not exaggerating much to say that googols of bits of information are being created throughout the universe every second.
Percy you can't get information from nothing.
Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 04-17-2009 2:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 04-20-2009 7:26 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 284 (505951)
04-20-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Percy
04-18-2009 7:25 PM


Percy writes:
But the entire world population of Homo Sapiens gradually evolving to the point where we'd be unable to breed with people from, say, 10,000 years before, does not seem beyond the realm of possibility. But since no one from 10,000 years before would still be alive to test this, we'd have to rely on a less-than-conclusive genetic analysis.
We do have people from 10000 years ago or 6000 years anyway, us, our cells have been copying themselves, just like the chimpanzees and the pandas, the wolves and any other kind of animal.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Percy, posted 04-18-2009 7:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2009 2:05 PM LucyTheApe has replied
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 04-20-2009 3:08 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 284 (505955)
04-20-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Coragyps
04-20-2009 2:05 PM


Coragyps writes:
But not perfectly. That's where the E-word sneaks in, Lucy.
I assume by the E word you mean Entropy. Inescapable, sure, that's what makes the cell such a miraculous instrument, it has inbuilt knowledge of what it has to do.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2009 2:05 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 284 (506076)
04-22-2009 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by alaninnont
04-21-2009 7:03 PM


Re: End of evolution??
alaninnont writes:
Clearer. Thanks. Is there a situation where A to I are alive today or is this just speculation?
A salamander is a salamander, not a bear.
Percy writes:
I'm not sure in what way you're misunderstanding what I said, so let me say it again in a slightly different way. There is no one alive from 10000 years or 6000 years ago or even 200 years ago, so we cannot perform an actual fertility test where an actual sperm fertilizes an actual egg.
I didn't misunderstand what you said; I just disagree, life is continuous.
You seem to make a claim that I don't understand 2Ltd.
Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.
Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by alaninnont, posted 04-21-2009 7:03 PM alaninnont has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Huntard, posted 04-22-2009 9:14 AM LucyTheApe has not replied
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 9:21 AM LucyTheApe has replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 284 (506103)
04-22-2009 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Percy
04-22-2009 9:21 AM


Re: End of evolution??
Percy writes:
Was my explanation in Message 150 helpful or not? If yes, great! If not why not?
Your message 150 was confusing. You're getting data mixed up with information. Maybe googles of information are being produced every day, but only by the creative forces of human intelligence.
Was it helpful? It didn't make sense!
Huntard writes:
LTA writes:
A salamander is a salamander, not a bear.
Yes, I don't think anyone disagrees with this, what's your point?
My point is that the term 'species' is arbitrary. It doesn't matter how selective a system is, it doesn't change a cow into a whale.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 9:21 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Perdition, posted 04-22-2009 4:25 PM LucyTheApe has replied
 Message 170 by Coragyps, posted 04-22-2009 4:29 PM LucyTheApe has replied
 Message 175 by Huntard, posted 04-22-2009 5:12 PM LucyTheApe has not replied
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 5:13 PM LucyTheApe has replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 284 (506111)
04-22-2009 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Coragyps
04-22-2009 4:29 PM


Re: End of evolution??
Coragyps writes:
The Sun is not so intelligent, despite being bright, and those gentlemen decoded a bunch of the information it produces every day to determine what elements are in its photosphere. And other scientists learned about its magnetic fields, temperatures, up-and-down motions......all of it from Dumb Information contained in its spectra. None from Creative Forces on the sun.
The sun reveals itself, intelligent humans create information!

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Coragyps, posted 04-22-2009 4:29 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Perdition, posted 04-22-2009 4:43 PM LucyTheApe has replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 284 (506113)
04-22-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Perdition
04-22-2009 4:43 PM


Re: End of evolution??
Perdition writes:
Intelligent humans interpret information.
Intelligent humans interpret data.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Perdition, posted 04-22-2009 4:43 PM Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 5:15 PM LucyTheApe has replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 284 (506115)
04-22-2009 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Perdition
04-22-2009 4:25 PM


Re: End of evolution??
Perdition writes:
What can happen is many different changes to many different groups of cows over millions of years such that a whale-like species finally develops. In fact, that's pretty close to what the fossil record shows happened.
Anything is possible in the land of fairytales.
Bones in the dirt indicate that organisms were quickly covered with mud before they could decompose, that's all, anything else is fantasy.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Perdition, posted 04-22-2009 4:25 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Perdition, posted 04-23-2009 4:06 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 284 (506122)
04-22-2009 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
04-22-2009 5:15 PM


Re: End of evolution??
Percy writes:
To express what you're trying to say correctly, it should read, "Intelligent humans interpret data or information (they're synonyms) to create meaning."
Data and information are not synonymous.
You keep referring me back to Shannon. Shannon's work dealt with systems of message transmission already in place. With a language and alphabet already established. That is, a message is generated, coded and sent, data is received and converted back into the message, in this sense the data is information, it is preconceived, ordered and intentional.
To gather data from the sun, document it and write a book about it is the process of creating information. Whether the information makes sense or draws correct conclusions is irrelevant. The sun doesn't send a preconceived message, we draw conclusions from our observations.
If you want to talk about Shannon's information in regards to DNA, then you have to assume an information source, a coder and a decoder, non of which matter alone can produce.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 5:15 PM Percy has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 284 (506124)
04-22-2009 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
04-22-2009 5:13 PM


Re: End of evolution??
Percy writes:
As Coragyps has already pointed out with his apt example, our Sun produces billions of bits of information every second. We didn't create the information about the Sun's spectrum. We didn't create the information about the Sun's magnetic fields. We didn't create the information about sunspots. The Sun created this information all by itself without any help from us. All we intelligent beings are doing is recording the information produced by the Sun.
Are you saying that an inanimate object, has developed the ability to use Boolean logic?
Information requires intelligence, tell me how I am wrong, please.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 5:13 PM Percy has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 284 (506126)
04-22-2009 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
04-22-2009 5:13 PM


Re: End of evolution??
Percy writes:
You said in Message 136 that information is useless unless it has meaning, but as the Shannon paper explains, meaning is not part of information.
Meaning is mathematically unquantifiable. You don't need meaning when dealing with the engineering problems of message transfer, as Shannon was.
Meaning is what intelligent entities like ourselves attach to information,..
Information is what intelligent beings use to communicate meaning.
If you're intent on ignoring these facts about information then it won't be possible to have a discussion with you. Post as much as you like, but if you ignore reality then any claims you make won't have any meaning in the real world.
Percy, I think it is you who doesn't understand the facts of information, not me.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 04-22-2009 5:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Percy, posted 04-23-2009 7:59 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 284 (506246)
04-24-2009 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Percy
04-23-2009 10:07 AM


Re: Off topic??
Percy writes:
LucyTheApe's claim is that only intelligent beings can create information, that in the absence of intelligent beings information entropy can never decrease. Evolution requires a decrease in information entropy without the intervention of an intelligence, which is impossible, and therefore we're at the end of evolution because no evolution could ever have happened in the first place.
My claim goes much further than what you're saying here Percy, my claim is that the cell has knowledge, it knows what it is and what it has to do. The information content (or lack of the effect of the 2nd law) of a DNA strand tells us that life is not chance.
A cell has to replicate through time and space, with no recall, it can't go back and try again.
This whole system is an intelligent communications construct.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Percy, posted 04-23-2009 10:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Percy, posted 04-24-2009 12:07 PM LucyTheApe has not replied
 Message 187 by Blue Jay, posted 04-24-2009 4:18 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 284 (507044)
05-01-2009 8:22 AM


FIN!
This has turned into a very interesting debate.
I tried to move away from 2LTD.
But it persists.
Today is less ordered than yesterday.
Yesterday is less ordered than the day before.
Where did the order come from?

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Son, posted 05-01-2009 8:38 AM LucyTheApe has not replied
 Message 239 by Percy, posted 05-01-2009 8:53 AM LucyTheApe has replied

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 284 (507069)
05-01-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Percy
05-01-2009 8:53 AM


Re: FIN!
Percy writes:
Every few days you check in and attempt to reset the discussion to square one, forcing everyone to remake their arguments from scratch. Please go back and respond to the messages that have been posted to you. If you don't understand what was said then ask questions.
Which messages do you want me to respond to Percy? Please be specific.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Percy, posted 05-01-2009 8:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 05-01-2009 10:19 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
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