GOD IS DEAD

You have no idea what reality really is, so don't teach me your understanding of the concept "reality". Focus your life around peace, balance and love and enjoy life, that's my wish for you.
My personal take on these Ideals that you hold so high is that they are trivial and transient:Love is so retarded when you have to leave your loved one in a decade or two. Can you even picture the grieve you'd be causing? Or are you so blinded by love that you think you are heaven?Peace is such a bullshit ideal - you can't have peace with everyone, you have to come back to reality. Do you want peace with the taliban? Or Osama Bin Laden?Enlightment - what's so precious about enlightment when you have to die? Are you only concerned with the trivial aspects of your personal existence? Are you ever going to ask yourself a question about our human existence(humanity as a whole)?
Do you really think your opinion is important to anyone but you?Balance - What's so magnificient about balance? I've just had my propeller shaft just balanced(should i be celebrating)?Regardless, my last paragraph in my previous post(and most of my posts in this thread) were CLEARLY AND SPECIFICALLY directed at the theists(the idea of a departing god, does it ring a bell, does it sound like directed to atheists??), so please give them some respect and let them speak for themselves. Besides, your opinion on what's important is life is just that - an opinion. One of 6.6 billion on Earth, that's right 6 600 000 000. The fact that you consider something the most important in life does not give it any weight, it just means you Stile hold it as important. Nothing more and nothing less. Unless you can present a Power of Attorney from all theists that authorises you to speak on their behalf, i'll consider your posting on the above questions an unnecessary and rude intrusion.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

One of us has used reality-based descriptions to provide reasons and backing for their stance. The other has offered nothing. If you'd like to continue basing your reality on nothing, that's your choice. I'm not sure you understand. I have no way to block anyone else from posting. And even if I did, I wouldn't use that ability. You may want to watch your own tone, though. You're not exactly offering a comfortable environment for rational discussion with anyone. What could possibly be more signifigant to me? You've finally touched on what really is important. Of course it's not important or meaningful to anyone or anything else. Why should it be? I do not control anyone or anything else. I control my life. So it's fitting that my meaning and purpose is for my life. Anything more is blatent arrogance and pride. Two things I do not respect and do not want to allow sway over my decisions. There's certainly nothing "higher" about over-inflated feelings of arrogance and pride.

I understand you have misdirected, misinformed and misplaced gripes. You still, however, have yet to offer anything that would be better than love, peace, balance and enlightenment.You are incapable of even imagining something better... yet you're simply full of complaints and an engrossed sense of entitlement.Instead of introducing minor issues why you think these things are imperfect... why don't you try suggesting something you think is better, or "higher" or more "grand"?With your ongoing refusal to do so, I'm left with the simple possibility that you can't. In which case, you're simply whining.Edited by Stile, : you're

Are you brain-dead? I've said 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times that we serve no purpose(especially when there is no God- god being a higfher purpose) and you keep asking me for 2 days to give you a purpose for our human existence? Are you OK?Do you speak German? Or Russian? In what language will you have no trouble with reading comprehension???Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Oh yes, I'm fine. Don't worry about me. Perhaps you do not understand the basic flow of debate though. Here's a rough outline:1. Person A makes a statement.
2. Person B explains why A is incorrect or incomplete.
3. Person A explains how B is misinterpreting or incorrect themselves.
4. Person B explains what A is missing.
...
...
This continues back and forth, each time new information is brought to the table to further explain each sides' arguement.I understand you've monotonously and continually clung to the same, unwavering statement that "we serve no purpose" since the beginning of this thread.I keep telling you that you're incorrect.
I keep showing you that you're incorrect.
You have yet to defend your position.
You have yet to add new information to your position.
You have yet to do anything but hold your fingers in your ears and whine.Without a reason to believe you, why would anyone take your repeated statement seriously? It's nothing more than a baby's tantrum.Here's another synopsis of the thread:1. You state we don't have a purpose.
2. I admit we don't know the purpose of this Universe (or even if there is one).
3. You state we don't have a purpose.
4. I provide you with a not-too-shabby, based-in-reality purpose and meaning (love, peace, balance and enlightenment).
5. You state we don't have a purpose.
6. I point out that you have yet to even imagine anything that would be "higher" than the purpose I've provided.
7. You state we don't have a purpose.
8. I show you exactly why any originally perscribed (or absent) purpose is immature to recognize or worry about anyway.
9. You state we don't have a purpose.
10. I show you exactly why wanting a purpose beyond a personal one is nothing short of blatent arrogance and pride.
11. You state we don't have a purpose.
12. I attempt to give you a kick to knock the record off it's repeating groove and actually spark some discussion.Do you have anything of interest? Anything additional? Anything to back-up what you simply state?

I am not going to reply to this crap. You have to FIRST resolve your reading comprehension issues, then'll probably be able to grasp what the topic is about and take part in it. Until then, have fun and enjoy balance, peace and enlightment.

The good thing about message boards is that they don't disappear. Whenever you feel like adding actual substance to your position, come on back and go right ahead.Take your time, there's no rush.

So will someone from the ID'ers bother to answer these questions I posted on the prevoius page:"I'd like to hear from the theists -
How would your life change if there was no God(let's assume for a minute there is no God)? Would you lose an important driving force for living, if you suddenly realised the universe and life did not serve any purpose and that we are merely "dust in the wind" as the song goes? Is it going to bother you that there is no next life with a countless possibilities to meet your loved ones and instead there is only a bleak, stone-cold END for each and everyone of you in a few decades. Could this bring apathy or as Nietzsche alludes rob you of desire to live to some extent?
(I always had the feeling they would scream in horror, seeing what a large role in their lives God plays, but i could be wrong)."I get the impression ID'ers are either afraid to come out, or there are none left but OpenMInd and johnfolton. Did we convert everyone to atheism?Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

As a former Theist, I feel a least somewhat qualified to answer this.While I had a deep faith and was wholly convinced of my beliefs, the teachings of my religion were never my reason for living. Certainly I believed God had a purpose for me, but as I had no way of knowing what that purpose was until it could be fulfilled, there was no real difference from having no purpose at all.I felt many things when I considered Atheists before I deconverted myself. Mostly it was personal incredulity at not believing in God, whom I was certain existed.I never thought that I would behave in a less ethical manner with or without God - I believed that God wanted us to do the right thing because it was the right thing, not out of fear of punishment, hope for reward, or just because he said so.As far as the "bleakness" of existence without a deity or the promise of an eternal afterlife...honestly, by the time I was ready to even consider renouncing my faith, I had learned to accept the world as it is, not as I'd like it to be. I'm a pragmatist. If there is no afterlife, well...nonexistence sure beats eternal torture. I'd like to live forever in paradise, who wouldn't, but I'm just not the type to "scream in horror" or become suicidal at the thought that eventually I will no longer exist, or that I may have to simply define my own purpose rather than having it dictated to me.I did not lose any driving force for living - I rather enjoy my life and being me. I suppose if I had lower self-esteem and my self-worth was entirely dependant on my religion (and I can't even conceive of how that would happen with me, even when I was extremely religious) that I may have had some trouble. Through my deconversion (and it was a slow process - I was still very much a Theist when I joined here) I felt more distressed at how I had unthinkingly believed whatever I was told without ever demanding a bit of evidence. I had never really applied critical thinking to my faith or examined it objectively as an outsider before, and the results of doing so made me feel ashamed to have ever bought into the scam. I felt (and still do) a bit angry at my family for basically brainwashing me into a belief system before I was able to make my own choice, and at the same time I felt (and still do) fear about what my family would think (there's a high chance my parents would disown me) if they found out I no longer believed in God.My motivations in life really haven't changed at all. Increasing knowledge, being generally good to people, none of that changed because I had never needed a deity to tell me to behave ethically in the first place. The same joy I found in life before losing my faith still exists in the form of friends and family and hobbies.It's an odd experience to de-convert. It's both Earth-shatteringly life-changing, and no difference at all at the same time.

Rahvin, thank you for the honest answer. It's great that you understand the topic and the questions i've put forward after all the confusion(part of which is probably due to the sub-standard English on my part).Anyway, i'll give you a short run down on the situation with religions in Bulgaria and my family dilemma so that you could see where the topic is coming from. As a former communist country, religion does not play a big role here, those 30 or 40 percent of the population that are quoted as believing in God are not truly Christians. They are more in the superstitiuous category than in Christianity. They believe some parts of Christianity but they also have views of God that do not fit with the Christian God. In fact, if you'd ask 1000 religious Bulgarians what God is, you'll likely get 1000 wildly different descriptions(most quite outside of the Christian one). My mother is no different, she a Christian and believes in God but she's not a die-hard Christian. She has her own superstitious views and believes in afterlife. Years ago I tried a few times to explain to her that there is not even a milligram of evidence about the existence of God but she wouldn't even listen(she'd run away). That's until my daughter was born and she was so happy and overjoyed that i understood I had ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to kill her faith. She loves us so incredibly much and she has lived with the idea of afterlife and us all coming together in the end for so long, that i don't think she can take the bare, ugly truth. I am sure i have no right telling her the truth, i cannot do that, that'd be unhuman. My father is an atheist and he does quite well(or at least seems to do well) with the idea of no afterlife but i hope he never tries to convert her. She finds so much comfort and warmth in her fairytale world of everlasting life and love for our souls that I think no one has the right to take it away from her.What about your moms and dads, do you have the courage to kill their faith and let them know that afterlife is non-existent? Would they think the Earth is a heavenly place or would they simply not care? Or would they despair, as F.Nietzsche asserts?EDIT: For the sake of the discussion we have to keep in mind that we percieve reality the way Natural Selection wanted us to. The ones who thought life was not worth living have quite understandably died out and only the ones with the genes "compatible" with the objective reality survived. This of course gives us bias, as our set of genes(we the ones selected by Natural Selection) naturally would find life quite amusing. However, outside of our biased thinking, there is no way for us to ascertain if life is really a bliss or hell. Without the set of genes that tell us what is good and what is bad, there is no way for us to know if Hell is a bad or a good place to be in. Without this particular set of genes(that Natural Selection has chosen for us by killing all the otherwise minded), our souls would not destinguish Heaven from Hell. In any way whatsoever.
This is slightly offtopic but at least it's in my own thread - so what do you theists think - DO SOULS HAVE GENES?Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

That would not be much different than virtually any place else. If you ask 1000 (fill in the blank with whatever nationality) what god is you would probably get 1000 different answers.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

There are to unavoidable fallacies that are relevant to this discussion and they are both arguments from ignorance.The first is that somebody pretends to know there is no God.
The second is that somebody pretends to know there is God."If" there is no God, can there be a particularly higher objective meaning to life?The answer is no. I essentially agree with you.Logically, if God does exist, it follows that we have more purpose inherently, whether we acknowledge it or not. i.e. If there is a judgement day where you answer for what you did while in the body, then it is an unavoidable conclusion that you are infinitely more relevant than you could have possibly imagined.As for personal purpose, I agree with the Kuresu post. It is possible to have personal purpose without God, as it is proven through the testimonies given in this thread, which I don't have reasonable reason to doubt.

And yet that's essentially the same as saying - "The first fallacy is that somebody pretends to know there is no Spaghetti Monster". No one can prove a negative and you definitely have to have a mindset of a theist to think the two statements differ significantly.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

The trouble is that most theists do claim to know that there is a God of some sort...........The atheist argument that there is no evidence for God is a different sort of "know". I "know" that God does not exist in the same way that we arguably both "know" that Loki does not exist.We cannot prove that Loki does not exist. In fact via evidence based discovery we cannot know anything with 100% certainty. We can however have a degree of certainty that the term "know" applies in all but the most pointlessly exacting philosophical of contexts.

Ah well, the crunch term is the spaghetti monster isn't it. We know how it's a loaded term. State some of it's traits, that it shares with my God - and I'll state the MANY it doesn't. (Undistributed middle term).You certainly have to think like an atheist, to mention it, as the monster shares little with the creator.I assume you would be disagreeable if I inserted "human being", as that's what my Christ, my God, is.But neither "human being" nor "sphaghetti monster" affect the true claim that no human knows if God exists in any objective sense.As for proving negatives, to prove you are not wearing socks, merely show the person whom disbelieves you. A negative can be proven, if it is clearly false in reality, such as the sphaghetti monster, for he is a known falsehood.I infact DO entertain possibilities which have no proof - such as multiple big bangs. Yet you don't compae them to a sphaghetti monster.These are the reasonings I have found so many to dismiss, but they still remain sound. Why are logically sound reasonings dismissed? Because some people by into the false position that science means that God is dead. Logically, this was never shown to be a sound syllogism. If it was, please now present it is a true, valid and sound syllogism that I may dissect it.