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Author Topic:   Executive Salaries and Corn Flakes
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5501 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 1 of 19 (461491)
03-25-2008 8:25 PM


In order to prevent a topic derailment in another thread, I am posting this item for discussion here.
...............................................................
I was reading a story on CNN about a guy who allegedly auctioned off a Corn Flake for $500. He says when he went to pour milk on his cereal, he saw the face of Mary staring up at him from one of the flakes. According to the story, he sold it for $500 to a Nun in Sweden. I don't know if the story is true, but let's assume it is and lets assume the guy was being honest when he thought he actually saw an image of Mary on a Corn Flake.
Our first response is to laugh and try to figure out what kind of sucker would purchase something the average Joe wouldn't fork over a penny for. It doesn't matter if you think it was worth $500, however -- someone obviously thought it was. Did the guy deserve the $500? Someone out there said yes. Also, the money didn't materialize out of nowhere, it already existed. He didn't get money for free -- he exchanged it for goods that were in demand by a buyer.
We say the same about Executive salaries and to us they seem ridiculously excessive, and to me they are. The fact is, however, that is what the corporations are willing to pay the executives to run the company. Again, it is supply and demand. That's the current asking price for a CEO. Without the salary, no CEO. The money to pay the salary does not materialize out of nowhere and they are not getting it for free. Overpriced bell hops? Perhaps. But just like the $500 Corn Flake, a commodity was exchanged in trade.
I am not defending excess and I am far from wealthy -- I am making ends meet as I finish up Grad School. I don't think either scenario above is a fair exchange but again it's now what you or I think -- it's what the buyer and seller think. I just realize there is nothing we can really do about these things. That's the market value of a CEO or a corporate executive -- or a Corn Flake inscribed with an image of Mary.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-25-2008 9:08 PM Grizz has not replied
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 Message 12 by Rrhain, posted 04-02-2008 4:47 AM Grizz has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5501 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 13 of 19 (462379)
04-02-2008 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rahvin
04-01-2008 3:46 PM


Re: Cap'n Crunch
As for executive salary caps, I'd put it as a direct percentage of the average employee's salary. No executive shall make more than 2000% of the average employee's salary at that particular company. This encourages higher living wages for all employees, but still leaves room for lower-paid unskilled positions (and ensures that they are more likely to receive a wage above the poverty line, as well).
Hi,
There are simple answers to the problem of economic disparity but no simple AND practical answers. This suggestion would certainly seem like a simple and practical solution that addresses the gap in compensation but it simply would not work as a practical remedy, for a number of reasons. Let's start with what we all know - Corporations exist to make a profit. Let's then assume there was a regulation that declared that the individual salaries of the executive officers must not exceed a specified multiple of the average employee salary within the corporation. What would happen?
Would the board of directors convene to authorize raising the salary across the board in order to keep the CEO salary at it's current base prior to regulation, or would they simply lower the CEO salary? As stated, the goal of any Corporation is to maximize profits. With this goal in mind, consider a corporation with 20,000 employees, Would it be more profitable to simply lower the CEO salary from say $10M to $5M or increase the total payroll by $20M to meet the average requirement? No answer is needed here.
Unless one were to introduce legislation that not only regulates the officer salary but also requires a boost in all employee salaries, the action does nothing practical but increase the corporate profit by $5M. With the goal of profit in mind, why would any corporation adjust the overall salary instead of just lowering the CEO wage? It's not like the CEO would refuse to work --they would have no choice, as all corporations would now have this requirement. You would have accomplished nothing in achieving the goal of adding income to the bottom tiers. What results is simply lowering the market value of the CEO while failing to increase the market value of any other employee.
Now, if you start to really get serious with this type of legislation and start to demand that corporations raise the salaries globally(and thereby lower profits), you have a problem. In this case, the board of directors and shareholders will likely just say, OK, forget it then, I will take my cash and my profits and take my ball and go home - let the government build their own software company.
Or, you can do what the Soviets tried - have the government build the factories and control production. Salary then becomes moot. Raid the corporate offices with plowshares and bash everyone over the head and hang the board of directors and executives. You can then set up a new system run by a governmental party that controls labor and production. Comrade Grizz, you WILL report to work tomorrow and make computers ! In exchange for your labor, you get to share a small apartment with five other people and will be supplied weekly rations of bread and borsch. For entertainment, each apartment is supplied with a black and white TV so the occupants can watch government-run TV stations showing commercial-free programming featuring reruns of the workers party parade.
People will always strive to make their lives better and more comfortable. In the developed world, we have the bare essentials we need to survive; however, we are not content with just survival--we will always want more than bare essentials. The corporations simply gives us what we crave. Regardless of who you are, where you are, or what your political and economic system is, you will always have the desire to live more comfortably and more efficiently. Fulfilling this desire requires the ability to purchase more refined goods and services. This in turn requires an economy where these increasingly sophisticated goods and services are available to the consumer that demands them. Such a market requires people who are motivated to maximize profit by investing in a corporation that will then have the capital to manufacture such sophisticated goods. At the fundamental level, this entire system is built upon a consumer base that is interested in more than just survival.Take away the profit potential and you take away the desire to spend the investments. Are we willing to give up our flat panel TV's and SUV's to 'make things right'?
We are well beyond the evolutionary hunter-gatherer stage of existence. Most of us do not work to survive, we work to maximize our comfort. We are not concerned where our next meal will come from, but how enjoyable it will be to the palate. We have a refrigerator full of food but get bored and head out to TGI Friday's to spend more of our wealth on something we do not need to purchase.
I ask anyone reading this thread to honestly and privately answer this question: Is our angst against the disparity in wealth primarily motivated by the unethical status of the disparity itself, or is it motivated to a greater extent by the observation that although we may work as hard as others, some can purchase a vastly greater supply of comfort and material pleasure in life than we are able ?
To someone in the third world who's main worry is bare survival, we are not poor, none of us. We are a society who has much more than we need to survive, but that simply is not good enough. There are many in this world who would give their fight arm(and leg) for a bare-bones shack with running water, 3 rudimentary meals a day from the fridge, sanitation, police protection, and a bus system to take them here and there. I suspect the real beef for many is that we have to settle for a mere 32 inch flat panel LCD instead of a Plasma and are forced to spend $4 a gallon for gas to make it to the ball game.
Legislation can be effective but instead of waiting for the bureaucrats to step in or expecting corporations to stop giving us what we are asking for without making large profits, we need to ask what we can do individually. It would be more prudent to rely on our own good nature and share some of our own personal wealth. Why haven't we done anything? We are just as responsible and guilty.We should feel blessed that by pure luck of the draw we have been afforded the opportunity to live in a society that has given us the opportunities and privileges that we now have.
If each of us took a bit of this privilege and donated a mere $20 of our wealth each year to a relief fund or legitimate global charity effort, we would make a serious difference in distributing goods and wealth. This would not give others the material benefits we have but would certainly go a long way in alleviating the poverty and suffering.
There are many legitimate agencies and social services out there, whether religious or secular. If you want to do something without waiting for others to act, find one of those and donate your time or money. These are things WE can do NOW to bring about change and make a difference. Not only does it make you feel good knowing you can help makes a difference, it is also more prudent than waiting for governments to cure all of the social ills.
There are no easy solutions to these problems. As I said in another thread, the consumer has more power to bring about change than the government ever will. This system is made for us and by us. We built it and we feed it by our consumption patterns. Corporations are simply giving us what we want. That's what they do. In exchange for providing the goods and services, they make a profit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rahvin, posted 04-01-2008 3:46 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Rahvin, posted 04-02-2008 8:56 PM Grizz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5501 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 16 of 19 (462402)
04-02-2008 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rahvin
04-02-2008 8:56 PM


Re: Cap'n Crunch
My sole point in this thread is that the gap in income between CEOs and employees is detrimental to the system in the long run. one solution to just that one facet of income gaps is a cap on CEO salaries, and the mors reasonable way to cap those salaries as I see it is to utilize a percentage of the average employee's salary to set the cap. This is not about communism, it's not about global poverty, it has nothing to do with how priveledged the first world is in comparison to the third world, it is solely about the difference in income between a CEO and the average employee.
Maybe it's because it's late or I just have zoned out, but I have to admit I don't get it. How is it detrimental to the system in the long-run given that the wealthiest individuals in America are not made up of CEO's but the investors - those who hold majority shares in the corporations themselves(the owners)? These are the indidvuals that hold most of the wealth in the nation, not the CEO of a corporation. These guys could buy a CEO 100 times over. A CEO is simply an officer appointed by the Board of Directors and shareholders to take responsibility for the financial condition of the corporation. Most of them are millionaires. Very few are billionaires.
You are saying this is all about the difference in salary between CEO and employee but you also have to consider the salary of the Board of Directors themselves, the other officers below the CEO, the CFO, the CCO, the head Accountant, the Lead attorney, etc etc. The CEO salary pales in comparison to the total of all these individuals together. You will have to lower their salaries as well.
We can debate back and forth but there are no simple and practical solutions to income disparity. Adjusting the salary of a CEO is not going to do much of anything except offer a feel-good measure to fool people into believing the income gap between rich and poor has actually decreased. Most of the profit and wealth in America will still reside with the majority shareholders themselves. There are only so many CEO's and most are millionaires, not the billionaire investors who hold large positions. The Obsession with playing with CEO salaries to bring about ay real change in the actual income dispairty that exists is puzzling.
It's compeltely feasible without affecting the bottom line at all, and it also has the added benefit of increasing employee morale and production. Don't let those idiotic HR drones fool you - the best way to make an emloyee happy is not to make them feel important, but rather to compensate him appropriately. When the employees are able to feel a real benefit from improving profits instead of all of that money being given to a single individual, they will be far happeier and better motivated.
Lowering the salary of the bank employee who has the title of CEO will not increase the salary of the rank and file. As stated yourself, if you do increase the salary to be a percentage of the CEO based on a pre-determined calculation, the result is not likely going to be a windfall that shoots people into different tax brackets. Would it immediately increase morale? yes. Will it increase production? Will employees suddenly feel the desire to work twice as hard and twice as fast? I don't think so.
You can hardly decry human greed when human greed is the very basis of the capitalist system.
But that's the point - we are all greedy. The desire to want more is what motivates us all - corporation as well as individual. We simply just tend to look at the wealthy as the cause of all the ills. Our greed as consumers to obtain things we don't need is what motivates the entire system and keeps it alive. In this sense, we are just as guilty as those who control the production. That was the whole point of my diversion. As I said, if you really want to make a difference, everyone STOP being greedy and hoarding things we do not need. We are ALL greedy. Those in glass houses .....
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rahvin, posted 04-02-2008 8:56 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5501 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 17 of 19 (462404)
04-02-2008 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rahvin
04-02-2008 8:56 PM


Re: Cap'n Crunch
You arent making sense. This isnt about charity. This is about the insane gap in income between a CEO and the average worker. I'm not talking about anything other than CEO and employee salaries here, Grizz. I don't see how global poverty factors into that except at the barest fringe.
Well, the reason I brought the whole diversion up was not to go off topic. I suspect(but could be wrong) that the beef for many is not really about disparity as a universal injustice causing social ills in the lower tiers - it's more personal than that. e.g. 'I do not have all the things I want and I see people who do and it's not fair.'
We are spoiled here in the West. That is a fact. As I said, the poor in America would be considered filthy rich by someone in an undeveloped third-world nation. The disparity between the Poor in America and the Poor in Ethiopia would be considered vast. Poor and rich are relative. There are income gaps everywhere.
That was the whole point of the latter portion of the thread.
To everyone calling for reductions in CEO salaries - Be honest now - if you were one of the CEO's making $10M a year, would you offer to lower your salary 25% to 'make things right', just out of the principle of wanting a more equitable payroll?
Honestly, I would have to admit my answer is no. If that is what someone on the board of directors believed my market value was, I wouldn't exactly say no or argue that I cannot accept it out of a deeply held principle. I would take it. I would also not think it correct if someone were to tell me I could not accept such a salary that was offered to me in exchange for my services simply because there are those who are paid much less.
I understand this argument is pointless in terms of recognizing and wanting to change an injustice or inequity. I am simply just presenting the question to inquire into what the real motive is for the angst. Is it really justice or jealousy?
I suspect for most of us, if we suddenly won the lottery, mending the income gap would be the last things on our mind. Just 'keeping it real', as they say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rahvin, posted 04-02-2008 8:56 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 04-04-2008 4:35 AM Grizz has not replied

  
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