Poor Satan, so misunderstood.

It should be noted that jaywill doesn't answer most of the objections to his posts. It isn't that hard to be prolific when you're blogging instead of discussing.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

That's what a Bible Thumper is: somebody who thumps the Bible instead of reading it.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

You have the cart before the horse. It isn't that we "want to rebel" against God and therefore choose Satan as our ally. It's that we are naturally rebellious (you know that "free will" thing?) and the various portrayals of "the Devil" in the Bible are personifications of our rebellion.The reason to love Satan is that Satan is us.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

That's what personification is - portraying something that isn't a person as if it was a person. For example, giving it a name. You're missing the point. If we choose to love Satan, we are "sympathizing" with our own inclination to sin. We are understanding that that inclination is our nature.Jesus said, "Love thy neighbour as thyself." We can't love ourselves without forgiving ourselves for our sinful, rebellious nature. God has forgiven us. We can't love Him or our neighbours or ourselves until we forgive ourselves too. Because "the manifestation of all evil" is inside us. It isn't some external entity. It's us. You're missing the point. "Satan" isn't an entity. "He" is our tendency to do wrong. It's our sinful nature that will be burned in the lake of fire. It's a purification, not a punishment. On the contrary, I'm freeing myself from an "enemy". I'm forgiving myself as God has forgiven me.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

quote:

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Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

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Your sinful and rebellious nature - and the arrogance you exhibit in this post - is also known as "free will".

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

I'm here to get the fish in the boat, not to psychoanalyze why he bit.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

Aren't you mistaking two sentences for one and I like ice cream?Is "it has nothing to do with free will" supposed to be a separate idea? If so, please tell us what "it" is and why "it" has nothing to do with free will. Edited by Ringo, : Spellinge.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

Fair enough. I was just trying to discuss the topic seriously.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

That Satan is misunderstood by those who think "he" is a malevolent entity, an enemy of God. As I mentioned, "Satan" is a figure of speech used throughout the Bible to represent the (potential for) evil in all of us. "He" is us.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

If I talked about a chair as if it was a person, that would be personification. If I talk about a person, that is not personification. And that's what personification is - talking about a non-person as if it was a person, describing a non-entity as if it was an entity. Why wouldn't you? As I already said, you can't love your neighbour as yourself unless you do love yourself - and you can't love yourself unless you sympathize with yourself. It has nothing to do with whether or not something is "bad". It's about understanding our potential to do bad things. If you don't understand that you're capable of doing bad things, you can't prevent yourself from doing them. If you blame all the bad things that you do on the boogey man, you can't stop yourself from doing them. You can't understand without sympathy and/or empathy. Prove to you there's no monster under your bed? Prove to you there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Prove to you that the Martians aren't stealing your thoughts?You're taking the affirmative side - that there's some spooky entity named "Satan" who causes all the evil in the world. The onus is on you to provide positive evidence. I've made my case on a number of Biblical principles. God is all-powerful and can not have a powerful enemy. We are responsible for our own sins and we will be judged according to our behaviour. If you have problems with my position, be specific. Don't just say, "Nuh uh."I couldn't care less whether or not you agree with me. If you think you can "prove" anything with scripture, such as a spooky satanic entity hiding under your bed, feel free to do so. Too bad.I guess you're doomed to a life of "the Devil made me do it".

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

If people stopped passing the buck and took responsibility for their own actions... it might improve their behaviour somewhat. It wouldn't change our natural tendency to screw up, but it might make us more willing/eager to fix our screwups.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

And yet, as we've seen in this thread, some people cling to the fear as if they enjoyed it. There's a certain comfort in being able to blame everything on "the Devil". There's also a certain self-satisfaction in "defeating" him. I think we've seen that in this thread too.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

What's the difference? We're not talking about things. We're talking about people, notably ourselves. And we're not talking about understanding in an intellectual sense. We're talking about being aware of our own tendencies to do wrong, about feeling loyal to ourselves and supportive of ourselves when we do wrong - instead of blaming some lion who's seeking to devour us. That temptation is just a natural human tendency. We don't need an outside agency to tempt us. That doesn't make any sense. If God is omnipotent, He doesn't need anybody to "serve" Him in the first place. And in the second place, there would be no reason for fear except from the temptor that He provided.Again, there is no need for a devil entity. Free will gives us all the temptation we need. The Satan of the Bible - as well as all the serpents, dragons, etc. that some mistake for Satan - are completely superfluous except as characters. Their only role is to personify what's inside us.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

Philosophically and practically, there's no "need" for a god entity. (And if there is a god or gods, He/She/It/They would have no need to be needed.)But this topic deals with the Biblical concept of good/evil, God/devil. According to the Bible, it's pretty clear that God is an entity. My contention has been that Satan as an entity doesn't work with the Bible as a whole.God is all-powerful. He can have no powerful enemies. If He delegated some powers to an underling to torment us, He would be unspeakably evil. Thus, we can conclude that the evils that befell Job, for example, were things that "just happened" - not things that were done "to" him with God's approval. Therefore, the character Satan in the story - though portrayed as an employee - was really only a plot device to represent (personify) the natural evils.An all-powerful good entity is inconsistent/incompatable with a powerful evil entity. Biblically, it's more reasonable to eliminate the evil entity.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

It's a fairly well-known premise in the Bible, isn't it? Here's one of the most explicit references:

quote:

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Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

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So, whether or not Jesus is God and/or the Son of God, the power is not divided. There can be no powerful "enemy". I'm saying that the God portrayed in the Bible is pretty definitely an entity (though I'm getting tired of that word). Since there is no power apart from Him, the Satan character doesn't have to be an entity. He makes more sense as a figure of speech.Edited by Ringo, : Spellling.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs