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Author | Topic: AL (Artificial Life) and the people who love it | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The odds of any one particular thing happening are astronomical. For example, the odds of you, specifically, being born to your parents is astronomical. The odds of something happening are very good. For example, the odds of any child being born to your parents are much better. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote: Of course. That's why you're getting such a bizarre response: You have said that until we can clap our hands, declaim "Presto!" and have a kitten appear, it isn't "life" but instead is a "biological machine." What we're trying to tell you is that it doesn't matter how. Whether it's god zap-poofing it into existence or humans using test tubes, it's still "life." If the end products are identical, then they are the same thing.
quote: But we are replicating. The problem is that you are claiming that the process by which the end product is made has some sort of effect upon what the end product is. This is why I keep asking you if the vending machine cares if your quarter comes from the Denver mint as opposed to the Philadelphia mint. If not, then it doesn't matter how it's made: They're both "quarters." And thus, it doesn't matter how it's made: They're both "life."
quote: Incorrect. Are you saying that humans are physically altering the intermolecular bonds with tiny electromagnetic calipers to individually place atoms? Suppose I take two moles of hydrogen gas and one mole of oxygen gas, mix them at STP, and spark the mixture. What, specifically, makes the hydrogen and oxygen molecules split apart and rebond as water? It certainly isn't humans doing it since the entire process of the chemical reaction is happening inside a container in which there are no humans. So if it isn't humans, how is it happening? Are you saying that god comes down and personally, deliberately, and consciously rearranges the atoms? Or does it happen on its own? This is the question that never gets answered: Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything? If the reaction does happen on its own, then it isn't "intelligent design." No, the fact that humans brought the chemicals together is irrelevant. The reaction takes place because of a physical condition, not because of mere will. We do not "will" the molecules to react. They do so on their own. Therefore, because humans don't actually rearrange individual intermolecular forces, any life that humans create is not "intelligently designed." It is, however, chemically created. And it is "life," just as if god had zap-poofed it into existence for life does not care where the chemicals come from. There is no "Lovingly Made by God in Heaven" stamp on the back. There is no "Genuine Life" hologram stuck to it.
quote:quote: You have said that you will not be satisfied unless and until humans can clap their hands, declaim "Presto!" and have a kitten appear. Thus, you reject the scientific conclusion that life is independent of origin. Question: How are viruses made? One way that we knew how they were made for a long time is that they hijack the replication process of a cell to replicate themselves. But then we figured out how to make them without the need for a cell. Phage will self-assemble. All you have to do is put the right chemicals together and stir. Is the phage that we create chemically not really phage since it wasn't created inside of a cell? You have said that life created chemically isn't really "life" but instead is a "biological machine." What's the difference? Why does the process affect what the product IS? Nothing in science indicates this and, in fact, science comes to the exact opposite conclusion: The end product is not dependent upon the way in which it comes into being. A water molecule is a water molecule is a water molecule. Are you saying that a water molecule exhaled from your lungs is different from a water molecule created in the Orion nebula?
quote:quote: But we've observed the how and why. Ergo, why do you not accept them?
quote: That's what peer review is for. It's why cold fusion has never been accepted: Nobody else has ever been able to replicate the results. You have taken the methodical skepticism that is the heart of the process of science to philosophical ridiculousness. Instead of treating observations as being made with integrity, even if they might be incomplete and misinterpreted, you are implying that they are made with malice aforethought, as if those who report them are deliberately making false statements or at the very least are incompetent fools.
quote: And that's why you run experiments to control for outside forces. Why do you think Randi so often rails against those who attempt to test for psychic powers without consulting with professional magicians who will be able to assist them in detecting fraud? And why is it, do you think, that when those who claim magical powers never seem to be able to perform under rigorously controlled circumstances? Go ahead and claim that it's magic. Just don't be upset when we demand that you put the magical force into the box to be poked and prodded. If you are unwilling or unable to do so, and especially if we are able to achieve the outcome without resorting to "and then a miracle occurs," then why should we accept "magic" as a necessary ingredient? But in the end, here's the most important part: If you don't think the explanation that we have is accurate, you have to show why. And if you are going to claim that it's really this other explanation, you really have to show why. It is not sufficient to cross your arms in a huff and say, "Well, you can't observe everything, so you don't really KNOW that that's the way it happens," and pretend that you've actually said something profound. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote: But that isn't a difference. You seem to be saying that the process by which something comes into being has an effect on what it is. The two have the exact same properties in every way no matter how you would examine it, but because the process by which one came into being is different from the other, that means they aren't the same thing. So once again, I ask you directly and I really wish you would give a simple, one-word answer: Yes or no: Does a vending machine care if the quarter you put in it was made at the Denver mint as opposed to the Philadelphia mint? Because if it's no, then that means that the process by which something comes into existence has no effect upon what it is. They are both the same thing. And your claim that somehow what humans make chemically and what god zap-poofs into existence are different is belied. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? How is that not a big deal? Before, there wasn't any lemonade. Now there is. How does his lemonade differ from lemonade created any other way? Why does the process by which something comes into existence affect what it is?
quote: So? It is irrelevant where the chemicals came from.
quote: Of course. There wasn't any lemonade before. There is lemonade now. Thus, it was created by you.
quote: Exactly 1. We're here, aren't we? You aren't about to try and pull the "It's so statistically impossible that it couldn't ever have happened on its own!" piece of crap, are you? We've been through this mulitple times, riVeRraT. Why do you keep forgetting? Here are the various things you are pretending you've never encountered. 1) Suppose I have a standard deck of 52 cards. I draw a card. What is the probability of me having drawn the Ace of Spades?What is the probability of me having drawn an Ace? What is the probability of me having drawn a Spade? What is the probability of me having drawn a black card? What is the probability of me having drawn a card? Until you define your parameters, there is no way to calculate the probability. 2) Suppose I have a dartboard. I have n darts. The probability of me hitting the bullseye with any given dart is 1/n. What is the probability of me hitting the bullseye as the number of darts goes to infinity and thus the probability of hitting on any given dart goes to zero? 3) Back to the cards. Suppose I have a standard deck of 52 cards and I draw one. What is the probability of me having drawn the Ace of Spades?What if we know that I've drawn a black card? What if we know that I've drawn a Spade? What if we know that I've drawn an Ace? What if we know that I've drawn a black Ace? quote: No, I don't find it against the odds at all. It is not surprising that live in a universe that can support the current moment exactly as it is in all detail because where else could it possibly take place? Again, we've been through this. The argument from the Anthropic Principle has long since been rejected as nothing more than sophistry. A boy asks his father, "Daddy, why is the sky blue." The father responds, "Because if it were green, we would ask, 'Why is the sky green?'" Now surely you aren't saying that the universe was specifically and deliberately created with the Ideal Gas Law in order to have a planet with an atmosphere that scatters light in a particular pattern so that a specific set of organisms can exist that speak a particular language where the phonetic string /hwai Iz skai grin/ can be used as an interrogative concerning the peculiarities as to the coloration of the visual heavens in daylight, are you? Because if the universe was "designed" so that humans could exist, then it was "designed" specifically so that people would speak English.
quote: But you're the one claiming that it isn't life. So if it isn't "life," what is it? And how could you possibly tell that it is if all you have is an example of it? Why does the process by which something comes into being have any effect on what it is? Edited by Rrhain, : Fixed my IPA Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
All good points rrhain. I get it, really I do. But I am not as educated on it as you.
So when you ask, does anything really happen on it's own, aren't you asking a bigger question? Don't we have to wonder why, any of this can happen, and does? It sure makes me believe that there will be life elsewhere in the universe, but it doesn't dampen my belief in God, since I don't really take Genesis so literal. I still find it so amazing that life can arise, and evolve, then study itself, and wonder where it came from.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
But that isn't a difference. You seem to be saying that the process by which something comes into being has an effect on what it is. Well it does, in a matter of speaking.But more specifically, I am saying it matters, because forcibly putting together the elements of life, does not prove that life happens on its own. Everything has to be there first, in order for it to happen. When we clone things, it appears to be the same, but then it's not.BTW, water is not life.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
(*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? How is that not a big deal? Before, there wasn't any lemonade. Now there is. How does his lemonade differ from lemonade created any other way? Why does the process by which something comes into existence affect what it is? Lemonade is not life, your confusing to different thoughts again.
So? It is irrelevant where the chemicals came from. No, thats my point. You seem to think that it is. I could take pipe made in America, and put together a boiler, or I could take pipe made in China, and put together a boiler. There the same right? No they are not. The pipe made in China will not last as long, and sometimes, it even has holes in it from the start. It matters where everything comes from. If it didn't then you wouldn't mind buying a car made in China, or having me put in cheap Chinese pipe in your basement.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Lemonade is not life, your confusing to different thoughts again. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
I could take pipe made in America, and put together a boiler, or I could take pipe made in China, and put together a boiler. There the same right? No they are not. Molecules are structurally, functionally, chemically the same, whether "natural" or "manufactured". Please offer evidence to the contrary, should you have any. I would prefer cites from scientific literature. You can search here or here to find the relevant literature.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
riVeRraT writes: It matters where everything comes from. Not at the molecular level it doesn't. A water molecule made in China is exactly the same as a water molecule made in America. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
...because forcibly putting together the elements of life, We do not "forcibly" put anything together. We re create the conditions of a prebiotic Earth and sit back and watch. Should you have any further questions about "forcibly" concocting prebiotic structures, I suggest you take a look at the Murchison Meteor Questions. RAZD is wrestling Rob over adenine.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
riVeRraT writes: It matters where everything comes from. Definetely! Check out the issue of chiralty. Manufactured (non-biological) amino acids exhibit what is called racemic mixtures. Biological amino acids are chiral. There is a difference. Your inner voice serves you better than you serve him. Follow the white rabbit and find out how deep the rabbit hole goes... The reality is disturbing. Your opponents here likely understand that about the molecules in question. To understand their sanctioned tactics, you must read elsewhere ( Read post 31 in it's entirety: http://EvC Forum: AdminNosy banned? -->EvC Forum: AdminNosy banned? ). They're going for your jugular. And appearently, any mistake will be turned into a political advantage. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
They're going for your jugular. And appearently, any mistake will be turned into a political advantage. I find that being wrong is quite a real disadvantage in any debate, not merely a political disadvantage.
chiralty Oh and while you're about it learn to spell this bloody word! Its Chirality. Is there any point pointing out that there have been plenty of chiral asymmetry breaking possibilities suggested on multiple threads on this forum? Because you still seem to be moaning on about it despite being given several plausible pathways. If you prefer the voices in your hea telling you you are right rather than actually being right then you might fell righteous and self satisfied, but you are never going to convince anyone else you have a clue what you are talking about. TTFN, WK
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Thanks Rob, Wounded King just proves your point.
I guess most people here then, wouldn't mind if I put Chinese pipe fittings in there $7000 boiler. I am in over my head on this subject, but there are some common sense questions that can be asked.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Rob, take your chirality questions to the appropriate thread.
RR, can you support your contention that a water molecule created in the lab is chemically, structurally, or functionally different from one that is natural? Or are you just going to continue with your bare assertions?
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I'm interested to note all of the creationists are now disappearing up their own orifices with the Ray Martinez like logic that anyone disagreeing with them just automatically proves them right.
TTFN, WK
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