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Author Topic:   Maximizing Freedom is the Goal of Morality
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 5 of 85 (416602)
08-16-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
08-16-2007 4:57 PM


Like many people in Taiwan, I'm sympathetic to the idea of individual freedom as a goal for society.
But I wonder if you aren't off to a bad start here.
Stile:
I propose that morality is nothing more than a code of conduct for interaction between humans. And therefore, it's goal should be to protect as much freedom for all individuals as possible.
You don't say individual freedom should be a goal of society. You say it should be a goal of morality.
But on what basis can you declare what morality itself 'should' do? The word implies that you are already using a system of moral belief as your frame of reference.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 08-16-2007 4:57 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2007 12:54 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 08-17-2007 2:45 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 60 by JavaMan, posted 08-21-2007 12:24 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 7 of 85 (416618)
08-17-2007 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2007 12:54 AM


Re: Succinct
Yes, precisely...
I saw after I posted, NJ, that you raised the same question.
The excerpt shared by molbiogirl stands on firmer ground. Quite aside from the fact that the observation is plausible and thought-provoking, it reads like a genuine observation. The observer is interested in how morality works. The observer doesn't sabotage the effort by going off on how morality 'ought' to work.
That would have made a strong OP. I'd be interested in any further reading she wants to recommend.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2007 12:54 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2007 1:39 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 32 of 85 (416845)
08-18-2007 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by molbiogirl
08-17-2007 6:59 PM


Re: The goal, not the origination
Thanks for posting all this, molbiogirl. Fascinating research on the psychopaths!
I suspect that asking 'What is the goal of morality?' is like asking 'What is the goal of right handedness?'
That makes asking 'What should be the goal of morality?' like asking 'What should be the goal of right handedness?'
Interesting to be reading all this after a recent visit to the zoo. Our ape kindred are indeed alive and well... and forming cliques and having arguments and showing off and shaming each other and getting cuddly. So many things about us follow from the reality, accepted eons ago, that our chances of survival improve with social cooperation.
____

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2007 6:59 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2007 7:40 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 41 by Stile, posted 08-19-2007 6:38 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 34 of 85 (416938)
08-18-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Jack
08-18-2007 7:40 AM


Re: The goal, not the origination
Mr Jack:
I think asking "what is the goal of morality" is like asking "what is the function of the retina"; both are evolutionary adaptions.
OK. In that case the goal for both, ultimately, would be survival.
The retina aids in survival because it does this or that thing that confers an advantage.
Morality aids in survival because it confers what advantage? It appears we've addressed it. Morality enables group cooperation.
If we're agreed on that much, we still have the question posed in the OP. We are asked what an evolutionary adaptation 'should' do.
Most people would say, I think, that retinas 'should' do the things retinas have been doing--that is, function in ways that confer an advantage. If a particular retina does not do this we speak of its impairment. We say something is wrong with the retina.
Morality, then, 'should' enable group cooperation for the purpose of survival. If it does not do this, we have impaired functioning. Something is wrong with the morality.
Is that fair to say? Thoughts?
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2007 7:40 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ikabod, posted 08-19-2007 12:05 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 68 of 85 (417576)
08-23-2007 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Stile
08-20-2007 11:35 AM


Re: Probably more of a range
Stile:
If I ended up in a free-rolling train-car with no brakes and had to choose left or right with the following consequences:
Left = Total anihilation of the human race (and let's add in most primates just to be clear of the intention here).
Right = I must personally rape a 10 year old girl.
I'd go left. Call it selfishness, or stupidity, or whatever you'd like, but that's what I'd do. And in this situation, I'm putting freedom over survival.
Not much freedom in this picture at all. To begin with, your own choices are ridiculously restricted in this hypothetical scenario. Even at that, you say you would choose to sentence the maximum possible number of innocent people to death without any of them having a say in the matter. That's not freedom for anybody. Yourself, maybe. A little. It's holocaust for everyone else.
I'm interested in hearing you explain why you find it morally preferable to kill that same ten-year-old girl, along with a few billion other people.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Stile, posted 08-20-2007 11:35 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 08-23-2007 1:10 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 81 of 85 (418054)
08-26-2007 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Taz
08-23-2007 12:35 PM


Taz:
Has it occured to anyone here that you guys are asking bullshit questions to try to corner someone into a moral trap?
Rape a child... kill billions of people... seriously... these questions don't deserve any answer at all.
No need for the plural. One person posed the question and the same person answered it--in the same post. If you dislike such questions, and answers, please address your complaint to the appropriate individual.
I am interested (as I see others are) in learning why the individual's choice would be as described. The information was volunteered--quite out of the blue, I assure you--for discussion. Yet the rationale given to support it was vague.
My motive is curiosity. Why the odd answer? Why, for that matter, the odd question?
True, the scenario hardly amounts to a real-life situation. But neither does anything on Star Trek. Whence comes the necessity of posing and deciding such--what did you call them--"bullshit questions"?
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 08-23-2007 12:35 PM Taz has not replied

  
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