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Author Topic:   Exodus Part Two: Population of the Exodus Group.
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5028 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 132 of 142 (409040)
07-06-2007 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Nimrod
07-06-2007 9:49 AM


Re: Where is the archaeological evidence?
Very good points there.
Could it be that the "expulsion" Manetho is refering to is nothing but the Hyksos rulers and remnants fleeing the destruction of Avaris and meeting up with a Hyksos garrison at fortified Sharuhen? The inscription of Ahmose son of Abana doesn't mention any huge mass exodus of the Hyksos, and infact mentions the despoil of Avaris and the taking of many slaves.
Perhaps Ahmose I, was simply securing his boundaries by laying seige to Sharuhen, and there's no way Sharuhen was going to hold 100,000 people even if it were 50 acres in size.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Nimrod, posted 07-06-2007 9:49 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5028 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 134 of 142 (410045)
07-12-2007 11:25 PM


Exodus Population.
A majority of New Kingdom pharaohs led campaigns into the orient, whether for tribute, show of power, or to secure borders. This is the climate in which the early tribe of Israel had its origins. That the later generations would have stories regarding Egypt and its "oppressive" regime is not that surprising.
The Hebrew version of their origins:
*N. Mesopotamian Hebrew origins
*Early migrations between Syria-Canaan, and Egypt
*Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, early patriarchs in Canaan-Syria
*Joseph and Jacob, the house of Israel rule in Egypt.
*Pharaoh oppresses the house of Israel, and make the Hebrews slaves for 400 years.
*Moses the liberator, saves Israel from bondage, and they escape Egypt to Canaan.
*Joshua succeeds, and conquers Canaan, installing Judges to rule over the tribes.
*The monarchy begins.
*House of David. 1000 BCE
Historical facts:
*Egypt 3000-2000 BC, pyramids built.
*2000-1900 Asiatics among Egyptian population
*1900-1700 Asiatics settle in Nile Delta
*1700-1550 Syrian-Canaanite kings rule the Nile Delta over 100 years
*1550 Culminating a 30 year war, Ahmose liberates the Egyptians from the Syrian rulers, expelling them from Egypt, and defeating them in several major battles, Canaan becomes Egyptian tribute territory.
*1550-1150 Four hundred year Egyptian control over Canaan.
*1200 Israel a people in Canaan, attacked by Pharaoh Merneptah.
*1200-600? Kingdom of Moab
*1200-600? Kingdom of Ammon
*1175 philistines occupy the Gaza coast
*1050-720 Kingdom of Israel
*920-586 Kingdom of Judah

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 4:36 AM John Williams has not replied
 Message 136 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2007 7:12 PM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5028 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 137 of 142 (410230)
07-13-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Nimrod
07-13-2007 7:12 PM


Re: HUGH problems there John.
I agree that the "Judges period" would have been somewhere between the "Exodus" and monarchy, roughly 1500 to 1050 BCE, not quite 600 years as you contend.
I disagree with you concerning Israelite traditions of Egyptian oppression. The early Israelites were Canaanite in culture, and since we know that Canaan was Egyptian tribute for nearly 400 years, It would be hard to imagine these Canaanites forgetting their servitude to Egypt. It was only under a weakened Egypt that indipendant Kingdoms of Phoenicia, Philistia, Israel, Judah, Ammon, and Moab developed around at the beginning of the Iron age, 1200-1000 BC.
I perfectly agree with you on the patriarchal timetable, approximately 2000 to 1650 BC, in the Middle Bronze age.

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 Message 136 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2007 7:12 PM Nimrod has not replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5028 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 139 of 142 (410523)
07-15-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by IamJoseph
07-15-2007 4:22 AM


Hardly any Canaanites?
Actually there were many Canaanites and Philistines up until the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, and Greeks conquered them. Wealthy cities like Sidon, Tyre, Zarephath, Kanah, Hammon, and Gebal. The Philistines at Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod, were living there as late as the 600's BC until Nebuchadrezar's conquest.
By 1200 BC, Israel was settling in the central hills of Canaan, south of Beth-shean and Megiddo, but north of Gezer and Jerusalem, as teh Mernepta Stele indicates.
By 1000 BC, this territory had expanded greatly under king David.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by IamJoseph, posted 07-15-2007 4:22 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by IamJoseph, posted 07-15-2007 11:18 PM John Williams has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 5028 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 141 of 142 (410890)
07-17-2007 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by IamJoseph
07-15-2007 11:18 PM


Re: Hardly any Canaanites?
I understand that inland Canaan was under Israelite control from before 1200 to 720 BC. The large population centers were concentrated near the coast, in what would be called Phoenicia--an ally to monarchic Israel.
The Merneptah stele was likely exaggerated, I agree. But it indicates from a south to north geographic approximation, the enemies of the state: Ashkelon, Gezer, Yano'am, and Israel--distinct coalitions Egypt either met in battle or claimed to have. Israel of course, did not become extinct and became a successful kingdom just 175 years later.
Early Israel generally controlled hilly inland territory of deserts and highlands. Canaan and Philistia controlled the coastal commercial centers, which Israel never fully gained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by IamJoseph, posted 07-15-2007 11:18 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 9:31 AM John Williams has not replied

  
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