Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How did food evolve?
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 9 of 86 (403675)
06-04-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
06-04-2007 11:06 AM


Hey!
In order to live, an organism needs energy. The primary ways of getting energy are from heat or light rather than 'food'. Living organisms had to be able to convert some source of energy into chemical energy which is used to 'live'. Such raw energy supplies include sunlight and the earth's warm core.
Once a population of organisms exists that exploits direct energy, a new niche becomes available: instead of taking the light/heat energy and converting it into chemical energy - the existing chemical energy stored in the cells of other organisms can be tapped into.
With the natural question of "where did life come from?" aside, I'd like to step forward. How did organisms develop this ability to convert raw energy to "life energy"? Such a process is awfully complex, so it must have taken a while to evolve, but before that happened, how did organisms get energy to live?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 06-04-2007 11:06 AM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 9:02 PM gert has replied
 Message 14 by sidelined, posted 06-04-2007 9:28 PM gert has replied

  
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 11 of 86 (403697)
06-04-2007 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
06-04-2007 9:02 PM


Calling chemosynthesis simple is completely absurd. Taking anything and converting it to usable energy is incredibly complex. If you understand how organisms may have converted chemical reactions into life, do tell.
Taking a step back (to the other question), where did all of this come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 9:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-04-2007 9:17 PM gert has replied
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 9:53 PM gert has replied

  
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 13 of 86 (403705)
06-04-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
06-04-2007 9:17 PM


Re: Cheese: The Atheists' Worst Nightmare
What's your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-04-2007 9:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2007 6:21 AM gert has not replied

  
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 16 of 86 (403708)
06-04-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by sidelined
06-04-2007 9:28 PM


That really has nothing to do with my question. I asked how organisms developed this ability. I'm also not going to read the entire ATP article!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by sidelined, posted 06-04-2007 9:28 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 06-05-2007 9:55 PM gert has not replied
 Message 79 by numnuts, posted 06-22-2007 1:32 PM gert has not replied

  
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 19 of 86 (403716)
06-04-2007 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
06-04-2007 9:53 PM


Chemical reactions aren't converted into life; chemical reactions are life.
Ah, I see, your view of life is skewed. We are alive. We have chemical reactions going on inside our bodies. But life [I]is not{/I chemical reactions. When you mix an acid and a base, you have a chemical reaction--but you don't have life by any means. Because we are alive, we can think, feel, etc. No chemical reactions can cause cognition or consciousness. You can't live without taking available energy sources and materials and converting them into usable energy, but life is immeasurably more than that. You know, you think, you feel, you sense, but that isn't caused by chemical reactions. The chemical reactions and electrical pulses inside us are caused by life, not vice versa.
The widely accepted notion that life was caused by mass and energy being under the right conditions is just as ridiculous as spontaneous generation. It never happened, and it doesn't happen. Even humans trying to make the conditions necessary have failed, as we can see from the Miller-Urey experiment. They made some proteins, but nothing near life. (And look, to make the proteins, it took intelligent intervention!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 9:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 10:27 PM gert has replied
 Message 41 by Larni, posted 06-05-2007 5:28 AM gert has not replied

  
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 20 of 86 (403719)
06-04-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
06-04-2007 10:00 PM


Where did this chemisty come from?
The laws of physics.
Where did the laws of physics come from?
When iron, left out in the elements, combines with oxygen to form rust, would you ask "where did this chemistry come from?"
Of course you would! Not wondering things like this is not having a scientific state of mind is having a closed mind.
I guess you're completely unaware how many truly great inventions - vulcanized rubber, the telephone, spirits, vaccines, medicines, matches, the microwave, explosives - were invented by accident.
And I have yet to see any of these come to life and/or evolve. You see, when you have an accident happen to a living being, it doesn't get new good traits. Genetic mutation doesn't create arms, lungs, brains, the ability to think or see. Mutation generally causes cancer and death. You can't have trial and error like that. What do you think happens when you get error?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 10:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 10:33 PM gert has not replied
 Message 48 by nator, posted 06-05-2007 10:07 PM gert has not replied

  
gert
Junior Member (Idle past 5803 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kokomo, IN, US
Joined: 02-08-2007


Message 24 of 86 (403733)
06-04-2007 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
06-04-2007 10:27 PM


If you think that thinking is caused by chemical reactions, you're lying to yourself. Why do neutrons fire? Why do they fire when they do? By feeling, I wasn't referring to the sense of touch, I was talking about emotions. Can you truly believe that your consciousness is simply caused by electric pulses? Thought, emotions, consciousness, and personality are beyond the physical world. These things can't evolve. Identical twins have the same DNA, but they can have insanely different personalities. Different personalities aren't completely caused by the environment, either. People from totally different environments can have very similar personalities.
Where did the laws of physics come from?
Nowhere. They've always been part of the universe for as long as there's been a universe. It's not possible to have a universe that doesn't have laws of physics.
Where did the universe come from? How would you know if it's possible to have a universe without laws? You're never tried one without them!
No, asking why iron and oxygen make rust is not a stupid question. Why do electrons have orbitals? Why are negatively charged particles attracted to positive ones? How can particles have a charge? If you'd really stop lying to your self and think about this stuff, you'd find that it's really amazing.
It does and has, in experiments and under observation.
I'd like to see that.
If living organisms came from chemicals, (sorry, I'm using the real meaning of "life", yours doesn't make sense) how many organisms do you get per "perfect chemical condition"?
Where did the chemicals come from?
The thing about mutations is that the bad ones get played, and there aren't any good ones. In a multicellular organism, how do you get mutation without death? How do you think some mutations can be good?
I'd hoped that you'd be an evolutionist that doesn't insult his opponent, but you've shattered that. After all, I could insult you for not thinking like I do, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 10:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 11:35 PM gert has not replied
 Message 45 by Doddy, posted 06-05-2007 6:46 AM gert has not replied
 Message 50 by nator, posted 06-05-2007 10:14 PM gert has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024