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Author Topic:   When does microevolution turn into macroevolution?
NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 13 of 52 (395244)
04-15-2007 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Juraikken
04-15-2007 6:57 PM


The fossil record is for macromacro
You miss the point Juraikken. The examples discussed demonstrate why we will see in the fossil record is only divergences that are most often well above the species level.
We see in the fossil record differences develop over time that are clear and if we were categorizing today we'd be at the family or order level because they are big enough to show up in the bones.
However, we can be fooled the other way when there is a wide sexual dimporphism and we might thing male and female are different species.
your example had an observer, we cannot observe the past because we were not there.
A very common misunderstanding this is. We very, very often observe things in the past. "Observing" isn't just looking at something it is also seeing the effects it has (an aside -- we never actually observe a n y t h i n g right now-- we see light from it a tiny bit later than it's 'now' but that is a silly detail).
We "observe" that a building existed of a certain size by finding foundtions under the earth. We can observe a number of things about this building without seeing it standing.
If we see hardened rock of a certain kind and form we "observe" that lava flowed under water.

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 Message 11 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 6:57 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 52 (395432)
04-16-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Fosdick
04-16-2007 1:49 PM


Not all gradual... but...
But I still don't know why ALL evolutionary events must be necessarily gradual.
I don't think anyone says they must all be gradual. Since we have observed instances in plants and animails (IIRC) of "instant" speciation then obviously they can not say that.
However, there is good reason why the vast majority of evolutionary events must be pretty darned gradual (however you quantify that). The changes are random events. A large random event has a very high probablity of producing something very dead if it manages to get beyound a cell or two in gestation.
An analogy is a drunk's random walk. If he takes small steps he may be caught before he steps into traffic. If however, he can somehow teleport 10's or 100's or 1000's of meters randomly he has a significant probablity of ending up inside solid rock, a kilometer in the air, in front of a truck or out to sea. If he takes small steps he will stay not to far from where he is unless there is some enouragement to go in a particular direction. If the direction is toward less danger he will be fine.
You do the same thing walking in a very dark room. You take small steps and correct you path when you feel something in your way -- your path is random and then selected for. If you start taking big steps you will be flat on your face very quickly.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 36 of 52 (395508)
04-16-2007 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Fosdick
04-16-2007 7:45 PM


Re: Not all gradual... but...
Why wouldn't that be a case for very sharply punctuated equilibrium, since there are no in-betweens?
Maybe, I don't know enough to say.
However, that is NOT the point I was trying to make. You don't seem to be answering my post.
Additionally you are using punctuated equilibrium incorrectly. It does not apply to what you are trying to talk about here.

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