Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

Well, the concept of God buying you from Himself is supremely ludicrous....So we have to think about what "redemption" really means.When you pawn your gold watch, you have a chance to "redeem" it - i.e. get it back by repaying the debt. If your friend Jesus pays the debt for you and redeems your watch, it's still your watch. You never lost ownership of it.So redemption doesn't necessarily involve a change in ownership.Why would your friend Jesus expect you to surrender your watch to Him? If He wanted to own it, He could have just waited until your time ran out.

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I didn't question your quotes. I questioned your interpretation of them.How about responding to my post?

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Only in "some" sense. Not in every sense.Soldiers are expected to obey their commanders and they are punished if they don't - but they are still expected to use their own initiative. And, of course, the term "surrender" has completely different connotations to a soldier.

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So the servant chooses his master?

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Christians say, "God moves in mysterious ways." His Will™ can be done in different ways.So, why would He choose a specific person to go to Wyoming and start a new church? Why would He need a new church in Wyoming at all to do His work?It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant.

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I'm just saying that God doesn't necessarily have to micromanage every move you make and every breath you take.It's one thing to acknowledge that God is the "Boss". What we haven't seen the Bible supporting (yet, at least) is the idea that God tells us what to do on a day-to-day basis.As far as I can see, we're still responsible (and accountable) for our own actions. That isn't "surrender".

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I think that's a good way of looking at it. Willingly following a leader is not surrender.
(And you're more use to your Leader as a willing follower than as a shackled slave.)

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In "real life", surrender is usually the lesser of two evils. You can surrender or you can go out in a blaze of glory and futility.If you don't acquiesce to the chain of command, if you don't do what's "right", the wheels might come off as ICANT has suggested. But surrender is the last resort, not the first step.

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I don't "know" any such thing. In Christian dogma that might fly, but not in "real-ife Christianity".Whatever happened to free will? Why would God give us free will if He wanted us to give it back? Whether or not God wants us to surrender is the question here, not the answer. The first step to success in understanding is not jumping to your pet conclusion. Sorry, darlin'. Does not compute. Surrender is the last resort.Surrender is for the one who's out of ammunition, not the one whose guns are still blazing.

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That doesn't answer the question.What's so special about "voluntary" submission as opposed to I'll-fry-you-for-eternity-if-you-don't submission?If God has "expectations" about what we do with our free will, what's free about it?

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Letting Him guide our choices is not surrender. If it was, you could have backed it up Biblically. So far, all I've seen is a misunderstanding of the word "surrender". That's not the question. If free will is a given, then those of you who advocate surrender are obliged to show how free will is not free will.Edited by Ringo, : Spellinge.

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It comes down to "owning" our choices again. If we make a choice because that's what He wants, it isn't really our "own" choice.Free will is a gift that God gives us. If we don't make use of it, if we leave it nicely wrapped under the Christmas tree, we are diminishing the value of the gift.He might guide us, help us get the most enjoyment out of it. But He doesn't want us to give it back or to leave it unused.

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We exercise free will by choosing to do the right thing on a case by case basis. There is no "giving up of control" involved. We are in control in each situation. It's just that we let God's principles guide us in each decision.A "surrender" only has meaning if it's accepted - but God doesn't accept your surrender even if you offer it. You are still responsible for your actions. You are in control, whether you try to pass the buck or not.

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Jesus said, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men," not, "Follow me or else I'll turn you over to the enemy."

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Since the God/human relationship is unique, we can only understand it in human terms. In the Bible, two of the most common and best-known metaphors are the shepherd/sheep relationship and the father/son relationship.In the 23rd psalm, the shepherd is more of a leader than a commander:

• "he leadeth me beside the still waters."
• "he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake."

He is a provider and a protector:

• "I shall not want."
• "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

He seems more like a servant than a master:

quote:

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Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

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Jesus' parable of the lost sheep is closely linked with His parable of the prodigal son. When he was down and out, the son decided to "surrender" to his father:

quote:

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Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

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but the father refused to accept his surrender:

quote:

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Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

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The jealous brother had obeyed:

quote:

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Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

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but the father was more appreciative of the son who made his own decision.

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