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Author | Topic: Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:IOW, don't be selfish. Think of others. So if the mother has over 70 years of Christian teachings and serving God, the act of thinking of others or being honest wouldn't be instinctive? Where is God's control? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: ....but a day or so later there may arise conviction from the conscience of one or the other.... Christians say, "God moves in mysterious ways." His Will™ can be done in different ways. So, why would He choose a specific person to go to Wyoming and start a new church? Why would He need a new church in Wyoming at all to do His work? It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4060 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant. Arrogant, why? Is it beneath God to personally tell someone something? If God speaks to people at all, then I don't see how it can be arrogant for a person to listen.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
truthlover writes: Is it beneath God to personally tell someone something? I'm just saying that God doesn't necessarily have to micromanage every move you make and every breath you take. It's one thing to acknowledge that God is the "Boss". What we haven't seen the Bible supporting (yet, at least) is the idea that God tells us what to do on a day-to-day basis. As far as I can see, we're still responsible (and accountable) for our own actions. That isn't "surrender". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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CTD Member (Idle past 5869 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Yes they did as did Jesus before he died, but did they keep the "fence" up around the Torah or did they temper that as Jesus taught them? I don't know.
How do you feel that God exercises restraining or directing influence over an individual, who has given control of their life to him, today? I feel He tailors His methods on an individual basis. I would not restrict these methods, lest I speak erroneously against the Holy Spirit. If I may ask, what harm could come from accepting the Lord as one's master? Are there any scriptures which lead you to believe it is incorrect to do so?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo writes: My point was that as a new believer I was prone to being controlled by a Pastor. This is no longer the case. If God did want me to go to Wyoming, I would know it in my heat and another person may mention it as a confirmation rather than a direction. It was like that for my detention center ministry. I was seeking direction and purpose in my Christian walk twelve years ago when a man approached me at a church gathering and asked me to join him in volunteer work at a detention center. Christians say, "God moves in mysterious ways." His Will™ can be done in different ways. So, why would He choose a specific person to go to Wyoming and start a new church? Why would He need a new church in Wyoming at all to do His work? It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant. I was always drawn to reach out to youth, admittedly for emotionally immature reasons, but the mentor ship and discipline of having to actually do it has helped me immeasurably over the years and I can now say with confidence that I am quite good at it---so much so that I voluntarily step away from the ministry whenever I feel that I have some inner work of my own to do. God gave me that ministry and no human will ever take it away. (except me--if I refuse to listen to the Spirit) I am not controlled by God...but I am led by Him as I seek the lessons that I will use to present. Christians are transformed by the Spirit rather than controlled by it. I think this is a crucial point to differentiate between a religious zealot and a willing vessel. Edited by Phat, : clarification
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: I am not controlled by God...but I am led by Him as I seek the lessons that I will use to present. I think that's a good way of looking at it. Willingly following a leader is not surrender.(And you're more use to your Leader as a willing follower than as a shackled slave.) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It can range from no harm to great harm depending on the person. If thinking of God as your master helps keep you in line, that's your prerogative. What sparked the idea for the thread are the teachings that say we must turn control of our lives over to God/Jesus. It has also been said many times on this board. The point of the discussion though is whether God or Jesus actually requires or commanded such an action or mindset. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5953 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
double post
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5953 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
PurpleDawn writes: What sparked the idea for the thread are the teachings that say we must turn control of our lives over to God/Jesus. It has also been said many times on this board. The point of the discussion though is whether God or Jesus actually requires or commanded such an action or mindset. Well then, yes, I think being Christian requires turning control of our lives over to God. Jesus thinks so. Paul thinks so. Following God is notbing more complicated than doing what is right or what you feel God asks, as fas as this is discernable, and as frequently as possinle. We are surrendering to what we believe is the will of God. There is no 'control' and there never has been. God does not take possession of our bodies against our will. It's a willing surrender, an aquiescence, an obeying of the voice of the conscience. I definitely believe that God requires it, and that we can not be Christian any other way.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I agree that God requires acquiescence (to accept, comply, or submit tacitly or passively) to his commands, but that is not synonymous with the most general use of the word surrender (giving up) or with the teaching that clearly tells people they should give up control of their lives to God. Some don't even use the word surrender.
In Message 1 I stated: In our dictionaries today, surrender also carries a meaning of yielding oneself to an emotion, influence, or course of action. IOW, if I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus, then I will change my actions accordingly; but I’m not giving up control of my life. So we are in agreement. In the Bible neither God nor Jesus required people to give up control of or power over their lives. In the Bible they do require that people choose to follow their commands. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.5 |
So we are in agreement. In the Bible neither God nor Jesus required people to give up control of or power over their lives. In the Bible they do require that people choose to follow their commands. Hi purpledawn in my first post I mentioned that surrender, and control were not in my favorite study Bibles. They do both appear in later translations. God does not demand anywhere that I know of that you surrender control of your life too Him. He does not require you to follow his commands. There could be consequences if you don't. He does want you to choose to follow his commands. He would like for you to choose to let Him control your life. That is why you are so unique. God made you a free moral agent so you could choose to love him and worship just because He is God. From personal experience of the last 58 years when I let God have control things went smooth. When I took control there was train wreck after train wreck. In other words big messes. Just because I believe it that does not make it true.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:If there are consequences, then God requires it. quote:Where does God say that? What do you call control and how does that control manifest itself? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5953 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
PurpleDawn writes: So we are in agreement. In the Bible neither God nor Jesus required people to give up control of or power over their lives. In the Bible they do require that people choose to follow their commands. Well, if it is required to choose one thing, it isn't much of a choice is it? You can choose to surrender. Once you have, you essentially give up control. It isn't taken from you, you give it up.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5953 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
PurpleDawn writes: What do you call control and how does that control manifest itself? That's what I have been asking you. I can't distinguish on a mental level or a physical level what the difference is between 'giving up control to God's will, and 'choosing to follow Jesus'.
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