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Author Topic:   Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 300 (393477)
04-05-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
04-05-2007 10:17 AM


Re: The Christian and the Purse
quote:
Many people have been Christians all their lives, but only a few actually have an awareness of what it means to die to self. That is what the surrender aspect of all this is all about. Its not surrender to an ideology or a church or a cause. Its surrender in a personal sense to the base instincts of the flesh. The Mother would be faced with the choice of saving money or being honest.
IOW, don't be selfish. Think of others.
So if the mother has over 70 years of Christian teachings and serving God, the act of thinking of others or being honest wouldn't be instinctive?
Where is God's control?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 04-05-2007 10:17 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 300 (393489)
04-05-2007 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
04-05-2007 10:17 AM


Re: The Christian and the Purse
Phat writes:
....but a day or so later there may arise conviction from the conscience of one or the other....
Christians say, "God moves in mysterious ways." His Will™ can be done in different ways.
So, why would He choose a specific person to go to Wyoming and start a new church? Why would He need a new church in Wyoming at all to do His work?
It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 04-05-2007 10:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by truthlover, posted 04-05-2007 1:35 PM ringo has replied
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 04-05-2007 2:21 PM ringo has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 48 of 300 (393503)
04-05-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
04-05-2007 12:25 PM


It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant.
Arrogant, why? Is it beneath God to personally tell someone something? If God speaks to people at all, then I don't see how it can be arrogant for a person to listen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 04-05-2007 12:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 300 (393507)
04-05-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by truthlover
04-05-2007 1:35 PM


truthlover writes:
Is it beneath God to personally tell someone something?
I'm just saying that God doesn't necessarily have to micromanage every move you make and every breath you take.
It's one thing to acknowledge that God is the "Boss". What we haven't seen the Bible supporting (yet, at least) is the idea that God tells us what to do on a day-to-day basis.
As far as I can see, we're still responsible (and accountable) for our own actions. That isn't "surrender".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 50 of 300 (393511)
04-05-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by purpledawn
04-04-2007 10:02 AM


Re: Light Burden
purpledawn writes:
Yes they did as did Jesus before he died, but did they keep the "fence" up around the Torah or did they temper that as Jesus taught them?
I don't know.
How do you feel that God exercises restraining or directing influence over an individual, who has given control of their life to him, today?
I feel He tailors His methods on an individual basis. I would not restrict these methods, lest I speak erroneously against the Holy Spirit.
If I may ask, what harm could come from accepting the Lord as one's master? Are there any scriptures which lead you to believe it is incorrect to do so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by purpledawn, posted 04-04-2007 10:02 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 300 (393515)
04-05-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
04-05-2007 12:25 PM


Re: The Christian and the Purse
Ringo writes:
Christians say, "God moves in mysterious ways." His Will™ can be done in different ways.
So, why would He choose a specific person to go to Wyoming and start a new church? Why would He need a new church in Wyoming at all to do His work?
It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant.
My point was that as a new believer I was prone to being controlled by a Pastor. This is no longer the case. If God did want me to go to Wyoming, I would know it in my heat and another person may mention it as a confirmation rather than a direction. It was like that for my detention center ministry. I was seeking direction and purpose in my Christian walk twelve years ago when a man approached me at a church gathering and asked me to join him in volunteer work at a detention center.
I was always drawn to reach out to youth, admittedly for emotionally immature reasons, but the mentor ship and discipline of having to actually do it has helped me immeasurably over the years and I can now say with confidence that I am quite good at it---so much so that I voluntarily step away from the ministry whenever I feel that I have some inner work of my own to do. God gave me that ministry and no human will ever take it away. (except me--if I refuse to listen to the Spirit)
I am not controlled by God...but I am led by Him as I seek the lessons that I will use to present.
Christians are transformed by the Spirit rather than controlled by it. I think this is a crucial point to differentiate between a religious zealot and a willing vessel.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 04-05-2007 12:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 300 (393517)
04-05-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
04-05-2007 2:21 PM


Re: The Christian and the Purse
Phat writes:
I am not controlled by God...but I am led by Him as I seek the lessons that I will use to present.
I think that's a good way of looking at it. Willingly following a leader is not surrender.
(And you're more use to your Leader as a willing follower than as a shackled slave.)

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 53 of 300 (393522)
04-05-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by CTD
04-05-2007 2:13 PM


The Master
quote:
If I may ask, what harm could come from accepting the Lord as one's master? Are there any scriptures which lead you to believe it is incorrect to do so?
It can range from no harm to great harm depending on the person.
If thinking of God as your master helps keep you in line, that's your prerogative.
What sparked the idea for the thread are the teachings that say we must turn control of our lives over to God/Jesus. It has also been said many times on this board. The point of the discussion though is whether God or Jesus actually requires or commanded such an action or mindset.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by CTD, posted 04-05-2007 2:13 PM CTD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by anastasia, posted 04-05-2007 8:58 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 55 by anastasia, posted 04-05-2007 9:03 PM purpledawn has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 54 of 300 (393592)
04-05-2007 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by purpledawn
04-05-2007 2:55 PM


Re: The Master
double post
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 55 of 300 (393596)
04-05-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by purpledawn
04-05-2007 2:55 PM


Re: The Master
PurpleDawn writes:
What sparked the idea for the thread are the teachings that say we must turn control of our lives over to God/Jesus. It has also been said many times on this board. The point of the discussion though is whether God or Jesus actually requires or commanded such an action or mindset.
Well then, yes, I think being Christian requires turning control of our lives over to God.
Jesus thinks so.
Paul thinks so.
Following God is notbing more complicated than doing what is right or what you feel God asks, as fas as this is discernable, and as frequently as possinle. We are surrendering to what we believe is the will of God. There is no 'control' and there never has been. God does not take possession of our bodies against our will. It's a willing surrender, an aquiescence, an obeying of the voice of the conscience. I definitely believe that God requires it, and that we can not be Christian any other way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by purpledawn, posted 04-05-2007 2:55 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 04-06-2007 6:21 AM anastasia has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 300 (393649)
04-06-2007 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by anastasia
04-05-2007 9:03 PM


Acquiescence, Not Surrender
I agree that God requires acquiescence (to accept, comply, or submit tacitly or passively) to his commands, but that is not synonymous with the most general use of the word surrender (giving up) or with the teaching that clearly tells people they should give up control of their lives to God. Some don't even use the word surrender.
In Message 1 I stated: In our dictionaries today, surrender also carries a meaning of yielding oneself to an emotion, influence, or course of action. IOW, if I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus, then I will change my actions accordingly; but I’m not giving up control of my life.
So we are in agreement. In the Bible neither God nor Jesus required people to give up control of or power over their lives. In the Bible they do require that people choose to follow their commands.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by anastasia, posted 04-05-2007 9:03 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2007 10:55 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 59 by anastasia, posted 04-06-2007 12:05 PM purpledawn has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 57 of 300 (393677)
04-06-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
04-06-2007 6:21 AM


Re: Acquiescence, Not Surrender
So we are in agreement. In the Bible neither God nor Jesus required people to give up control of or power over their lives. In the Bible they do require that people choose to follow their commands.
Hi purpledawn in my first post I mentioned that surrender, and control were not in my favorite study Bibles. They do both appear in later translations.
God does not demand anywhere that I know of that you surrender control of your life too Him.
He does not require you to follow his commands. There could be consequences if you don't.
He does want you to choose to follow his commands. He would like for you to choose to let Him control your life. That is why you are so unique. God made you a free moral agent so you could choose to love him and worship just because He is God.
From personal experience of the last 58 years when I let God have control things went smooth. When I took control there was train wreck after train wreck. In other words big messes.

Just because I believe it that does not make it true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 04-06-2007 6:21 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 04-06-2007 11:17 AM ICANT has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 300 (393678)
04-06-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by ICANT
04-06-2007 10:55 AM


Re: Acquiescence, Not Surrender
quote:
He does not require you to follow his commands. There could be consequences if you don't.
If there are consequences, then God requires it.
quote:
He would like for you to choose to let Him control your life.
Where does God say that?
What do you call control and how does that control manifest itself?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2007 10:55 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by anastasia, posted 04-06-2007 12:11 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 70 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2007 4:46 PM purpledawn has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 59 of 300 (393687)
04-06-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
04-06-2007 6:21 AM


Re: Acquiescence, Not Surrender
PurpleDawn writes:
So we are in agreement. In the Bible neither God nor Jesus required people to give up control of or power over their lives. In the Bible they do require that people choose to follow their commands.
Well, if it is required to choose one thing, it isn't much of a choice is it? You can choose to surrender. Once you have, you essentially give up control. It isn't taken from you, you give it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 04-06-2007 6:21 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 04-06-2007 12:43 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 04-06-2007 6:49 PM anastasia has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 60 of 300 (393689)
04-06-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by purpledawn
04-06-2007 11:17 AM


Re: Acquiescence, Not Surrender
PurpleDawn writes:
What do you call control and how does that control manifest itself?
That's what I have been asking you. I can't distinguish on a mental level or a physical level what the difference is between 'giving up control to God's will, and 'choosing to follow Jesus'.

This message is a reply to:
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