Why do right?

False dichotomy.I don't believe for a second in "spiritual reprisal for wrong doing", but I do have specific resons for doing what's "right".The survival aspect has already been mentioned. Plain old garden-variety empathy is another. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Feel what makes others feel bad and try to avoid actions that cause those feelings. Feel what makes others feel good and seek out actions that cause those feelings.I don't need no stinkin' "spiritual reprisals" to motivate me.Edited by Ringo, : Old age. I knew how to spell "dichotomy" yesterday.

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No, not really. In the long run, positive reinforcement is more effective than negative. That's a myth. You'll probably find that people are more likely to abandon God and religion when they are sick or dying.Even Jesus said, "My God, my God, Why hast thou foresaken me?"

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"Why" is irrelevant. The point is that we do.We feel hunger and thirst and we can make those feelings go away. Those feelings have a bearing on our survival.Empathy has a bearing on our survival too. Sometimes we can make the feeling go away by doing what's "right". Who says it has no meaning?(By the way, I like your avatar. That's exactly the way I pictured you. )

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I don't think Jesus ever "abandoned" religion. I think He was against religion from the start.Jesus' "My God, my God" speech demonstrates how human He was - human enough to question God.

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You're just about the only one around here who thinks I'm trying to be helpful. Actually, it's more like I'm asking, "Are you sure there's a space there?"I'm susceptible to night blindness (which is why I haunt the streets at High Noon ). Sometimes when I'm out in the dark, I have the distinct feeling that there's a deep hole right in front of me. I know it isn't there, but it's still (dare I say it?) "tangible".I suspect that the "space" you sense could similarly be filled in by a good dose of light. I think you can (though it's a different kind of "fullness"). That's why I drew the parallel between the two. Directly. Indirectly. What's the difference? I was thinking more in terms of "survival of the species". The meaning is whatever we make it to be. We don't need a Celestial Spook to tell us what our meaning is. In a sense, that's the antithesis of meaning - a "meaning" that we can't understand. I have a feeling there will always be room for your God.You seem unwilling to turn on the light.

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I have "commented" that negative reinforcement is fairly insignificant to me. Bear in mind that we are only talking about the threat of negative reinforcement here - and threats are even less significant to me.If you want more elaborate "comments", you'll have to elaborate on what you want. The "deathbed conversion" myth is just a variation of the "no atheists in foxholes" myth. If it were true, there never would have been a Red Army.Those who are constantly in harm's way, at "death's door", don't come home from the wars and automatically do what's right because they have "seen the Light". Living with the threat of death often hardens them to the living. They might well ask, "what's the use of helping the homeless when we're destroying homes in Iraq?"Anyway, deathbed conversions have no effect on the right-doing of the living, do they?Edited by Ringo, : Made deathbeds consistent.

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I don't "assume there will never be a space". There "may be a chasm" the very next time, but so far there hasn't been. All I'm saying is keep your high-beams on. Don't pull over just because there "may be" something in the dark. We don't "have to". We don't make laws to help us be good. We make laws to deal with the bad. A lifeboat doesn't help your enjoyment of the cruise. It's there "just in case". Yes. We put them in jail if they are a direct threat to members of our species, yes. Come on. Abortion is good for the survival of the species. Unwanted babies are not. We've been there and done that.There is what is right and wrong for me, determined by me, based on what makes me feel good or bad. There is what is right and wrong for society, determined by society, based on what makes society feel good or bad. And there is right and wrong for humanity, determined by humanity, based on what makes humanity feel good or bad.There is no need at any of those levels for a magic formula to be spoonfed by an outside entity.If you want a better answer, ask a better question. The thing is, your God is also whatever YOU make it. Otherwise, why do people make so many different ones?

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Empathy. There's always the possibility of rehabilitation. Malfunctions are not necessarily hereditary. No it isn't. It's Rob's misunderstanding (and apprently yours too) of the survival instinct.We fought Hitler because of the survival instinct - short-term pain for long-term gain. (Does it occur to you that exterminating the Jews would have narrowed our gene pool and weakened the capability of future generations to adapt?)It's old news, girl. Survival doesn't think. It only wants. You can't compare orphaned children with aborted fetuses. Have you forgotten the word "empathy" already? We (as a society) simply do not feel the same empathy for a fetus that we feel for an orphan. Maybe you think we "should", but we're not talking about "shoulda-be's" here, we're talking about what is.We (as a society) also have empathy for the woman. We (as a society) feel that society is better served by her making her own decision, weighing her own chances of survival against the chances of the unborn. (Like it or not, survival is a competition.) You're arguing against yourself. Compare the number of adoptions with the number of abortions. If all those babies had been born, the vast majority of them would never have been adopted.Adoption is one way of dealing with unwanted babies - put them where they are wanted. Abortion is another. Godwinized in 56 posts. On a more serious note, yes, I do feel "Hitlerish", but in a way you probably can't understand. If a certain boat hadn't left Hamburg on a certain day, I might very well have wound up shoving Jews into ovens.Would I have done what was right for humanity or what was right for me?

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So, what's the difference between me feeling "right" about what I do and you feeling "right" about what Somebody else tells you to do?

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quote:

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"Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look,
He thinks too much; such men are dangerous."

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--From Julius Caesar (I, ii, 194)

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That's where you "fall" down. What does "better than human" mean?You seem to be claiming that there is some "feeling" that doesn't come from our natural will to survive and to help our society and our species survive. You seem to be claiming that that "feeling" is somehow "better" than the natural will to survive and to help our society and our species survive.I have asked you how your "feeling" is different from my "feeling". Now I'll ask how your feeling is "better" than my feeling.Better in what way?

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Why not?What else?

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You ignored the more important question: What else?You asked for explanations. People gave you explanations. You handwaved them away.What explanation do you have?

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The most unsatisfactory and incomplete explanation of all. To qualify as a "theory", it would have to explain what makes the compass point in that direction. What is the "magnetic field"?

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Nothing "clear" about it. Smoke and mirrors.The question is "Why do right?" and you have offered no answer at all.

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