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Author Topic:   Degrees of Faith?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 86 (376917)
01-14-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
01-14-2007 8:45 AM


Re: Proof for the Method
Does the scientific method really give us true knowledge of the natural world or just confirm or prove false the questions that we pose?
Science assumes that there is true knowledge of the natural world to be had. It then seeks to ask the right questions to understand, explain, model, predict and to some extent control that natural world.
Whether it actually reveals the 'truth' of the natural world or just approximates to it in some limited way that our perceptions are capable of comprehending, matters little to all practical intents and purposes.
Years ago using the scientific method, scientists come up with a fact about the natural world.
Years later using the scientific method, scientists show that that fact was wrong and give us a new fact.
Better models reap better results and are arguably closer to the truth of nature than inferior models. Verisimilitude - The ever increasing closenes to 'the truth'
From a peon standpoint, without proof, we trust that the scientists are asking the right questions with our well being in mind. Is it reasonable to continue to trust a group that has provided knowledge that helps to destroy our environment and our health? Do we continue to trust because we feel the pros outweigh the cons, although we have no proof that the pros do outweigh the cons; or do we trust because we have become conditioned to trust what scientists proclaim, just as those raised in a religous setting have been conditioned to trust what religion proclaims?
You are treating scientists as if they are some sort of select cult proclaiming truths for the rest of us to follow!!!!
There is nothing to stop anybody asking whatever questions they want. If you think that the wrong ones are being asked then ask the right ones.
All science demands are that the methods of science are used to evaluate any such questions.
Science has only ever progressed by the means of pioneers in the field asking the questions that no-one else has - Netwon, Darwin, Galileo, Einstein etc. etc.
There is nothing to stop you or I being another of those pioneers but our own inability to ask the right questions and find the subsequent answers!!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 01-14-2007 8:45 AM purpledawn has replied

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 86 (376975)
01-14-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
01-14-2007 12:42 PM


Faith Is Evidence
If faith is evidence -
Is it possible to have faith in something which is actually completely untrue?
If so you would presumably class this as 'false evidence'?
How is it possible to differentiate between faith that is evidence of the truth and misplaced faith that is false evidence?
IF it is not possible to differentiate between faith that is evidence of truth and misplaced faith that is false evidence
THEN to all practical intents and purposes it is useless evidence as it actually provides no clue to what is true and what is not.
Is my logic wrong or have I unwittingly setup a straw man of some sort?
This idea of faith as evidence seems very circular to me but even if we accept faith as evidence does the above analysis not present a fairly striking problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by iano, posted 01-14-2007 12:42 PM iano has replied

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 Message 14 by iano, posted 01-14-2007 5:55 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 86 (377012)
01-14-2007 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by iano
01-14-2007 5:55 PM


Re: Faith Is Evidence
So basically you agree that in the case of faith evidence it is totally impossible to distinguish between misplaced faith leading to false evidence and faith based evidence that points towards the truth?
Is there no test that can be done to seperate misplaced faith from faith in the truth?
- we assume the difference between our internal thoughts and what arrives at us by sense data is actually different. We assume what we perceive as sense data is actually relfecting an external-to-us reality. There is no way to verify this but we do so in order not to be solopsists. That we do so automatically doesn't make any difference. Sense data arrives through (we assume) various channels; sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch.
The key difference is that I can objectively corroborate my sense data with other people.
We can independantly analyse the data, test it and come to common and consistent conclusions about reality.
We can independently make predictions based on these conclusions and then test EACH OTHERS predictions to verify that our common conclusions are sound and that our perception of reality is actually consistent with each other.
Through mass consistency of perception and detailed independant predictive testing we come to the reasonable conclusion that there is a common physical reality, or physical truth, for all.
It is of course theoretically possible that we are all suffering a matrix style mass delusion but it is one on a grand or even cosmic scale.
- I do the same thing with another sense data as we all do with the above sense data. I assume it reflects an external reality simply because it has the same attribute as other sense data to whit: I perceive it as reflecting an external reality
In the case of faith there is ultimately nothing other than internal perception. There is no way to verify that the faith evidence you have is the same as the faith evidence anyone else has.
Sure you can discuss it and even conclude that it is the same as someone elses faith evidence.
BUT there is no objective way, predictive or otherwise, to test whether any two people actually have consistent 'faith evidence' on which they are basing their conclusions.
Thus accurate conclusions made on 'faith evidence' require only that the INDIVIDUAL be delusional for them to be based on false evidence.
Whilst conclusions made on physical evidence require that EVERYONE be delusional for them to be based on false evidence.
Therefore - if faith evidence can be classed as evidence at all which I question - it is inferior and infinitely more prone to delusional error than empirical evidence.
If this does not actually dismiss your 'faith as evidence' position surely it weakens it to the point of irrelevence?

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 Message 14 by iano, posted 01-14-2007 5:55 PM iano has not replied

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 25 of 86 (377166)
01-15-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-15-2007 3:02 AM


Science Answers All
Ah, Yes. However a great many people believe that all answers are to be found through science.
Who exactly believes this?
That is nothing more than belief in something for which there is no proof. There is no "raising the bar" in this case. In fact it is just as misguided as the litoral creationsts.
There is much evidence that those questions which science does claim to be able to answer it answers well. Verification through prediction being the main means.
Prediction is something which is notably lacking from any creationist theories.
Yes, I feel the same. Show me your confidence or evidence of it. What is empirical about it? Where is the science in it?
Empirical in the sense that it is physical evidence which can be analysed and detected using our physical senses.
Confidence because it demonstrably enables us to understand, explain, predict and to some extent manipulate nature.
The science of it is that it follows the the methods of empirical testing.
It is when people go beyond what we truly know
that violates the ideal of the scientific method. Having "confidence" and the phrase "the persuasiveness of the methodology and the powerful manipulations" is your belief about science. These are your personal views. Nothing more.
So what are these facts that 'we truly' know that we should base our knowledge on? Any examples of such facts?
Stick to facts without indulging in your beliefs.
i suggest you take your own advice.
What is true about what we know is that we know very little. The rest is faith and belief.
Very little compared to what?
Whether what we know is very litle or not, the rest is what we should aim to know. Science will almost certainly be a significant, but not the the only, means of progressing us towards that aim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-15-2007 3:02 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
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