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Author Topic:   The Fate Of Jesus Followers
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 47 (363719)
11-14-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-14-2006 5:35 AM


Re: heading Off Topic?
quote:
All I can say, in conclusion, is that church tradition and accounts of such things should be taken seriously.
Why?
quote:
This whole idea of empirical evidence for everything is simply un-necessary, and I for one see no reason to end my beliefs concerning it.
Unecessary?
How do we ever come to know anything if not through empirical evidence?
Perhaps, you simply think it "unecessary" when you simply prefer to believe something.
quote:
To do otherwise would be to suggest that the church has concocted stories in the interests of self preservation---and I don't think that this shows respect for the institution and for which it stands.
Why couldn't they have concocted stories? That's what humans do to preserve the things they want to believe in when they have no evidence.
If the church fears the truth, then it's not worth much, is it?
quote:
You are right that we have no evidence.
There is no evidence for a lot of things that will show themselves as reality, however. Its all about belief.
So, what things without evidence for them will show themselves as reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-14-2006 5:35 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 47 (363720)
11-14-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
11-14-2006 7:41 AM


Re: heading Off Topic?
quote:
No, but I think thats its time that believers were given some respect as to what they have felt and experienced.
Why?
quote:
What I can't and won't accept and what many of
critics assert is that an unproven story with no source is as good as a myth.
Well, then, how are we to decide what is true among the thousands of stories out there which are not supported by any evidence?
We can't make any conclusion at all.
quote:
What those of you who have never met God (impartation, calling, or born-again experience) don't understand is that many of these stories and legends....while elaborated for effect...are probably true.
So, the truth of these stories is something you can't demonstrate to anybody else. You think they are probably true because you believe in God, but not because any evidence leads you to the conclusion that they are probably true.
Well, there are lots of things that lots of people believe solely due to religious belief.
quote:
Of course, I may never convince you of that, but I take offense to having my inner experiences of religion and belief dismissed as unprovable. They most certainly are provable in my mind and heart.
If the only place your experiences take place is in that "inner" place, and you cannot demonstrate them to anybody else, then they are, by definition, non-testable.
Just because you are satisfied with your "inner experiences" doesn't mean anybody else needs to accept or even respect them, phat.
Do you respect and consider "real" all the other religions of the world in addition to your own?
quote:
As for the fates of the Apostles? I believe that they suffered persecution...it says that they would in fact suffer for Christs sake.
The bible says a lot of things, phat.
You can believe what you want, but there's very little reason to think that the Apostles were all martyred.
We just don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-14-2006 7:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 11-15-2006 10:03 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 47 (363942)
11-15-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
11-15-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Validity of Truth Claims
quote:
Because we have some knowledge of the world around us. We are not scientists, but we didn't just make this stuff up!
You didn't just make it up?
Show me, then.
Now, you claim that "particularism" is a valid way to derive "true knowledge", but that is flawed:
quote:
So it’s better just to assume that our properly formed beliefs are innocent until proven guilty.
What is the definition of "properly formed belief"? How can I tell the difference between a "properly" formed belif and an "improperly" formed one?
So, the truth of these stories is something you can't demonstrate to anybody else. You think they are probably true because you believe in God, but not because any evidence leads you to the conclusion that they are probably true.
quote:
Admittedly so, yes.
So, explain to me again why your faith in the veravity certain myths or legends should be given any special consideration or respect when determining what we know and what we do not know?
quote:
If I were completely skeptical, I’d disbelieve everything.
That's not true.
Skeptics simply require evidence to believe things, and we don't accept things without critical examination first.
quote:
That would safeguard me against every falsehood. But the problem is that I’d miss out on all truth whatsoever”and some truth might be very important. So that wouldn’t help me much either.
No one urges us to believe absolutely everything. But some very important and influential thinkers do advise us to believe nothing (or very little)”or at least they recommend that we believe only when an idea is incredibly well supported.
Right. ...they recommend that we believe only when an idea is incredibly well supported .
quote:
And my point is that I believe that people did not just base their beliefs on "cleverly devised stories" and legends. These events were passed down on a personal level between people who respected each other and who were honest to the best of ther abilities.
...and you know this because...?
quote:
I agree with you that we just don't know so in a strict sense, this is a belief we are talking about. My point is that stories need not be discredited if told from otherwise rational people to others.
But if it's "all about belief", why does it matter if any of the stories are strictly, actually true or not?
Well, then, how are we to decide what is true among the thousands of stories out there which are not supported by any evidence?
quote:
We can't make any conclusion at all....as you said...unless we trusted the person making the claim.
No, no, no.
You still can't make any conclusion, regardless of who is making the claim, unless you have evidence to support it.
quote:
Like I said, if I trusted you as an otherwise sane person and you presented me a truth (experience) claim I would not dismiss you as outrageous simply because there was no empirical evidence for your claim.
But you should, phat.
Anybody can be mistaken or deluded or biased. Anybody.
Always, always, always insist upon evidence before coming to any conclusion.
If there isn't any evidence, you simply have to say that you do not know. And you cannot go any further with what you know.
Now, if you want to move into faith/belief, that's your choice, but that is not critical thinking anymore. That is credulity.
quote:
Aside from the evidence that I consider myself sane and that I may trust my belief when I see it in others.
Being sane doesn't preclude being wrong, phat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 11-15-2006 10:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
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