Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution is most likely a part of intelligent design
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 21 of 59 (355965)
10-11-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by kent75
10-11-2006 12:57 PM


There are no instructions
kent75 writes:
that deep in the blueprints of the dna of the first organisms on earth were instructions created by an intelligent designer for these organisms to *evolve* into complex things...
First, let me stipulate that DNA is not a blueprint, but more like a kind of recipe. A blueprint implies an exact description of what something is going to look like. You can't make a blueprint for a house that's been demolished by a hurricane, for the obvious reason that it's impossible to predict the exact damage a hurricane will do. But you can build a house in Florida, according to specifications that do not take hurricanes into account. That's what might be called "a recipe for disaster".
But actually, I want to talk about those "instructions" you mentioned. Please consider the following.
When a glass falls to the floor, it breaks. That's what anybody would expect to happen, isn't it? It just happens. Nobody in his right mind would suppose that somewhere in the glass, when it's still in one piece, there are instructions that specify what happens to the glass when it falls to the ground. That's a ridiculous idea, and I think you'd have a hard time trying to find anybody who would disagree. (Come to think of it though, when you're from America, I guess anything is possible...)
Well, just as no instructions are needed for a glass to break when it falls to the floor, no instructions are needed for imperfect replicators to evolve into something more complex under selective pressure. If there are imperfect replicators, and they replicate imperfectly in an environment where there is selective pressure, then logic dictates that these imperfect replicators evolve. It's what must happen in these circumstances. And since the products of evolution become themselves part of the increasingly complex system that exerts the selective pressure - in a kind of feedback loop - it is also inevitable that simple things evolve in the direction of increasing complexity. Given imperfect replication under selective pressure (also known as mutation and natural selection), evolution, and with it, increasing complexity, are the inevitable consequences.
They are just as inevitable as the fact that a glass with no support in a gravitional field with a concrete floor underneath is going to break. And this inherent inevitability obviates the need for built-in instructions.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by kent75, posted 10-11-2006 12:57 PM kent75 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 10-12-2006 2:26 AM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-18-2006 1:22 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 29 of 59 (356067)
10-12-2006 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by 2ice_baked_taters
10-12-2006 2:26 AM


Re: There are no instructions
2ice_baked_taters writes:
If there are imperfect replicators, and they replicate imperfectly in an environment where there is selective pressure, then logic dictates that these imperfect replicators evolve. It's what must happen in these circumstances.
No, logic does not dictate this. We still do not understand why a certain group of chemical reactions based around the element carbon developed into a self replicating phenomenon.
But that's not what I said. We may indeed not understand (yet) how replication starts, but once it does ("if there are imperfect replicators"), if it is imperfect (which is the case with the replication of DNA), and if there is selective pressure (which is the case in an environment of limited resources), then the only possible future for these replicators is one of evolution. Logic does indeed dictate that.
Nor do we understand why these replications first began evolving to "survive".
It seems as though you are saying that replicators gradually became survivors, that they evolved into survivors. But that's an incoherent notion. In order for that to happen, they already have to be survivors. You cannot evolve into a survivor: if you evolve, you are a survivor.
Chemical reactions take place all the time. No other chemical reactions result in an evolutionary process that I am aware of.
That's because chemical reactions per se are not enough. You need replication. And even that is not enough, you need your replication to be imperfect, or differential. And then you need selection. It's quite a shopping list, but once you've got all that, evolution is guaranteed to happen.
We are clueless as to why what we call organics resulted in evolution.
No, we're not. You are confusing your own ignorance with what science does or does not know. We know that in organic chemistry there are molecules capable of being copied. We know that this copying process is not always perfect. We know that resources in the environment are limited. We know that some copies are better at acquiring those resources than others. All of these circumstances coming together inexorably lead to a process of evolution, there is no way around it. We know that these circumstances pertain in organic chemistry, therefore we know "why" - I'd rather say "how" - this resulted in evolution.
What we don't know (yet) is how this process bootstrapped itself from a world without replication, although Richard Dawkins describes a plausible scenario involving clay, in "The Blind Watchmaker".
Selective pressures happen to everything. Everything interacts with it's environment. So is the organic process unique or does the universe follow this process? Evolution is happening all around us?
Yes, everything interacts with its environment, but not everything replicates, let alone imperfectly. Selective pressure alone is not enough. (Remember the shopping list?) So, not everything around us evolves, only those things that replicate imperfectly.
They are just as inevitable as the fact that a glass with no support in a gravitional field with a concrete floor underneath is going to break. And this inherent inevitability obviates the need for built-in instructions.
Really? It was inevitable that random chemical reactions would need "instructions"?
It seems you do not know what the word 'obviate' means. Let me rephrase: the inherent inevitability I spoke of means that there is no need for instructions.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 10-12-2006 2:26 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 10-20-2006 12:28 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 39 of 59 (357299)
10-18-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-18-2006 1:22 PM


Re: There are no instructions
I have an objection to your glass breaking analogy as it would relate to replicators.
You misunderstood the point of my breaking glass; it has nothing to do with replicators. It was an example of something that doesn't need instructions for it to happen. It was a reaction to something Kent75 wrote:
that deep in the blueprints of the dna of the first organisms on earth were instructions created by an intelligent designer for these organisms to *evolve* into complex things...
In a certain sense, DNA can be said to contain "instructions", but they are not instructions that tell an organism how to evolve, let alone how to evolve in a specified direction. The only way in which DNA contains instructions is in the specification* it gives for the arrangement of amino acids in proteins.
My point with the breaking glass was that the logical consequence of having a glass in free fall above a hard surface is that it inevitably breaks. In the same way, the logical consequence of having imperfect replicators under selective pressure is that these replicators inevitably evolve.
Energy alone is absolutely worthless without a mechanism, a designed mechanism, to convert that energy to make it useful.
You are making a crucial mistake here, which is the unwarranted inclusion of the word 'designed' in your assertion. Without it, you have a point. But by insisting that the mechanism must be designed, you invalidate your reasoning.
You stated that DNA is more like a recipe than it is for an instruction.
No, I didn't say that. As you can see in what I wrote above, I have no qualms with the concept of "instructions" in DNA. What I said was that DNA is not like a blueprint. That's because a blueprint is an exact description of what something is going to look like when it's finished. DNA isn't like that. It merely specifies what amino acid goes where in a protein. There's nothing in DNA about hair colour, physiognomy or whatever other heritable characteristic you care to think of. Likewise, there's nothing in a cake recipe that tells you how crispy the crust is going to be, or how mellow the filling. It just specifies what goes into it, in which quantities, and how long to bake it. That's why I said DNA is more like a recipe than like a blueprint.
If we just had a "recipe" of various chemicals, how would the morphology of any given organism form?
Where in the recipe for cookies is the crispiness specified? Or the nice brown colour? Those characteristics arise out of the process of making cookies, but they are not specified.
In a cell, when a ribosome reads an RNA molecule, it appends amino acid after amino acid to a growing chain of them, in a linear fashion. But due to the physico-chemical characteristics of the various amino acids and their interactions, the chain folds in a particular way. There is no instruction anywhere in the DNA that corresponds to the way the protein folds. It just happens that way. It results in a protein with a very specific form that gives it very specific function. But all of that just happens because the physics and the chemistry happen to work that way.
If there were not some instruction involved, we'd just be a random blob of discombobulated atoms in no discernable fashion.
As I've just explained, and as you'll find out if you learn about protein synthesis, that's just not true.
And this is why random chaos could never produce the complexity and homogeneity we see in the universe.
In evolutionary theory, only mutations are random. Natural selection is far from random, as has been explained a countless number of times already. Please, in the interest of the discussion, familiarize yourself with the ins and outs of the theory of evolution. If you do, you will realize that randomness isn't by far the whole story.
* I think a disclaimer, although slightly off-topic, would be justified here, because I realise I'm in grave danger of being misunderstood once again, for allowing instructions in DNA, and speaking of "specifications". This could very easily be misconstrued as admitting the existence of an "instructor" and a "specifier", in the form of some kind of intelligent being. I most emphatically deny admitting that. I think the mindless process of evolution can give rise to instructions, specifications and design, without the need whatsoever for a guiding intelligence.
Edited by Parasomnium, : spelling

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-18-2006 1:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-18-2006 11:20 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024