Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP

Fine. But for the record, I quote what Nosy wrote: He suggested he was not smart enough to see a connection to the topic (which was no doubt said with tongue firmly in cheek). I was not being disrespectful, rather did I respond to his remark about himself.

Yes. It's far easier to dismiss searching questions as drivel rather than objectively examine oneself.

Your comments are well received. There does seem to be considerable confusion in many minds as to what constitutes a human being. If there is no standard, other than physical appearances, to make such judgements then one might justly conclude that we are on the slippery slope to self annihilation or else, hopefully, a wide ranging reappraisal of personal and social responsibility will arise from the ashes.I personally get very concerned at the general degradation of the quality of human standards at every level. Killing people in prison is not an answer, of course. One might discover there are more dangerous people who have never been charged with crimes.I do not believe individuals can change the world, but I firmly believe we can all make changes within ourselves to improve our lives and the lives of those whom we love.Thank you for the reference. I'll look at it. You may be interested in reading Jessica Mitford,s book 'Kind and Unusual Punishment: The Prison Business. It was written in 1973 about US prisons, but it is likely that few improvements have been made in the interim.

Statement in Support of Capital PunishmentPart I, Article 2 of the Human Rights Act 1998 declares: Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which this penalty is provided by law.Part III, The Sixth Protocol, Article 1 declares: The death penalty shall be abolished. No one shall be condemned to such penalty or executed.Support for the restoration of the death penalty has fallen below 50 per cent for the first time since its abolition 40 years ago, according to a poll for The Daily Telegraph. Paradoxically, support for the death penalty has waned even as the murder rate in Britain has steadily increased since abolition. In 1964, there were fewer than 300 murders. By 1994, the year of the last parliamentary vote, there were 565 and last year there were 850.Hundreds of prisoners, including murderers, rapists and robbers, have absconded from open prisons. Figures show that offenders have been escaping from Leyhill Open Prison at the rate of two a week for three years. Six men who raped, tortured and then murdered a schoolgirl were on probation. Criminals are being released from jail little more than a year after they have been sentenced to life imprisonment. One offender was freed only 15 months after a life sentence was imposed. A drunken former pupil who knocked a teacher unconscious and left him scarred for life has been ordered to be detained for six months. Teachers across Britain are subjected to foul language, personal abuse, sexual insults and threats of violence by pupils every few minutes.Each year, offenders under the supervision of the Probation Service commit about 56 murders and attempted murders, 20 manslaughters, 33 rapes, 5 attempted rapes, and 13 instances of arson with attempt to endanger life. Sixty-one per cent of all males on probation are reconvicted of a crime. If they have one or more previous convictions, the figure rises to 70 per cent. The reconviction rate for males aged 18-20 on Community Supervision is 81 per cent.David Fraser, author of A Land Fit for Criminals who spent 34 years trying to reform criminals, witnessed at first hand the contempt of most criminals for “rehabilitation sessions”. They simply continued their criminal careers. He maintains that the only effective way of preventing criminals from committing crimes is to lock them in prison. But keeping criminals in prison is expensive.There is of course another way of preventing hardened criminals from committing more crimes. The solution was abandoned years ago and there is little evidence of its return. Those who have responded to my opening message expressed concern about executing the wrong person, the social deprivation of offenders, lack of education or treatment for drug addicts.Not one has expressed concern for murder victims. The mother in a park with two children who was brutally murdered; elderly people who are robbed and murdered by drug addicts; children and young women who are raped and murdered on their way home have no rights because they are dead. Yet the perpetrators of those crimes, and countless more, receive public sympathy, compassion, tolerance and respect for their human rights.Who will protect the right to life and respect of law abiding citizens if we continue to feed the contempt criminals and young people openly express for ineffectual criminal justice systems? Parameters have been removed. Anyone who attempts to restore law and order is accused of abuse of human rights. Is it any wonder that societies are held in contempt by those who get away with murder?

Please read my message 47. Perhaps you'll change your mind considering that life sentences often amount to 15 months in prison.

I agree that destructive behaviours are - or can be - learned. It would be cruel beyond measure to punish those who have absorbed cruel or unpleasant acts from their 'upbringing' (not an appropriate word) but must other unsuspecting people become their victims in turn? Where does it all end? It is not demonizing damaged members of society to wish to protect potential victims of those who are damaged. It is more in the interests of protecting the potential victims, who are usually vulnerable, law abiding citizens who simply wish to live in peace. Who should have priority? Is it conceivable that democratic societies can survive by giving priority to the most damaged in our midst? However repugnant it might seem to make such choices, it seems to me that we must! It seems to me that too much bias is in favour of the damaged to the cost of the undamaged citizens. These are extremely difficult issues, but must be squarely confronted. No one can justifiably claim society has not tried. If, as you suggest, rehabilitation is next to impossible, what then? Do we roll over and leave ourselves completely vulnerable to people who are so damaged that they are beyond help? Or do we bite the bullet and hope to protect future generations from failures of the past?Sadly, there are members in my own family who were victims of abuse and then abused their own children. I wouldn't say it is a disease, yet I cannot deny the damage to victims. No member of my family deserves to be put down because, as far as I know, murder was not committed. And yet - and yet - was there not a form of murder that did not destroy the flesh of the victim?

In carefully controlled and independently supervised circumstances that is permissible. Is the practice being abused in Oregon? One can always find extenuating circumstances to pardon anyone. No two people or circumstances are identical. You seem to suggest that only the accused or convicted are entitled to your consideration. What have you to say about the victims of murder? Do you have any concern for the snuffing out of their lives?

What you wrote about prisons is basically correct. They are certainly not ”Correctional Institutions’, rather the opposite. It might be helpful if you could provide some statistics in support of that comment. Drug addicts are some of the most violent criminals. Many kill others for money for their next fix. Their victims are often elderly people without much money anyway. What about the victims of violent drug offenders? Do you care half as much about them being murdered?QUESTION - Do you, or does anyone else for that matter, have any survey reports as to why increasing numbers of people take drugs? Do people think drugs are fun? Harmless? The in thing? Do they believe drugs are good for their health? Why, why, why, do people get hooked on drugs????Is it possible that people are so utterly depressed that drugs seem to be a source of welcome relief from their everyday misery? I am interested in your thoughts on these questions. I disagree. Capital punishment is the only useful method of enforcement of law and order. It failed as being effective because of the endless processes of appeal (and who financially benefits from that long drawn out process?). Capital Punishment puts a definite end to the lives of those who kill others in the process of committing unlawful acts. That is a fairly certain result. When hardened criminals realize that they can not go through the courts, be found guilty of murder, be sentenced to life imprisonment, then be released back into the community in just over a year to recommence their criminality, they might possibly rethink their approach to life and might have more respect for societies that will no longer tolerate persistent criminal activity.How many law abiding citizens respect our Law Enforcement Agencies and the Criminal Justice Systems? Your remarks suggest that you have little faith in the system. If that is the case, then why would criminals have more respect than the rest of society?Surely, if we care about the future of our wonderful freedoms, we should take urgent steps to put things right before it’s too late. And too late might be closer than anyone realizes.

Reply to SuperNintendo Chalmers’ message 55The information you provided is much appreciated. I was familiar with some statistics you provided. I may have already mentioned Jessica Mitford’s book, Kind and Unusual Punishment: The Prison Business, which was published in 1973 but is apparently, according to your current information, still relevant. There wasn’t a great deal of ”kindness’ in her study of the US prison system.Before continuing, I wonder if you have had time to read my Message 47, “Statement in Support of Capital Punishment” inasmuch as you say my comments about drug addicts are irrelevant. Insofar as my comments included murders by drug addicts I do not agree that my remarks are irrelevant. Please also note that in the UK life imprisonment can often mean serving as little as 15 months of a ”life’ term, and the figures for prisoners on early release who reoffend capital crimes.One reason for early release of capital offenders in the UK is overcrowding due to constant growth in prison populations. The government has yet to decide whether to build more prisons, and at what cost to the public purse. I assume the growth in prison populations at home are much the same?A few years ago I visited the forestry facility near Wyott, CA, where my younger brother spent time around fifty years ago before being released. It was a worthwhile visit in the course of my own research. The Ranger-in-Charge was very helpful and forthcoming. That is one example of rehabilitation that is highly successful. But, I think it fair to emphasize, it is successful because inmates sent there clearly demonstrated their determination to turn their lives around. It is with regard to people generally making very difficult (godlike) decisions that I posted Message 22. (Incidentally I deleted the offensive ”yawn’ with apologies).The moral issues surrounding the death penalty are another mine field that few wish to negotiate. I asked a number of searching questions (and continue to do so, with disappointing response). My core concern was, and still is, the underlying issue of personal and collective responsibility for the societies we construct - never mind the social engineers. In truth, we are all social engineers in the sense that we are free to determine the standards by which we conduct our lives and relationships. I’m sure that you, and everyone who takes part in this forum, has personal knowledge of people who, despite considerable handicaps, have had the fortitude to climb out of a deep pit leading to hell.As I said, few members of this forum seem prepared to respond to specific questions. Fine. No one need respond to any messages. Frankly, I have little else to say on the subject. Law and order is controlled by politicians we elect. We can keep going round in ever diminishing circles and end up our own backsides, for all the good that will achieve. I respectfully leave you with two reminders: We Reap What We Sow, and, We Get What We Deserve.

You might care to read my message to SuperNintendo Chalmers, which more or less ends my participation in the forum. I thank you for your well considered thoughts on the questions raised.I cannot imagine how any government could find the will or money needed to deal with the problems you outline. There are many pressing issues that will have higher priority.

Hi Chalmers.I was hoping someone else might respond to your Message #55, dated 26th May, with an obvious observation regarding the stats you reported on the cost of capital crime trials and the death penalty.If one takes a couple of steps back, frees the mind of garbage, and reflects on the bottom line of your fulsome reports, it’s all about MONEY!!The present system is a money machine for attorneys, ”expert’ witnesses, and all ancillary departments associated with the ”criminal justice system’ - the main exclusion, of course, being the tax payers who meet most of the costs.One mustn’t forget the accused in those cases. If I was a no hoper down-and-out I might be tempted to bump somebody off and become an instant celebrity. Attorneys would line up in the hope of representing my case. I’d get three squares a day, a bed and accommodation. I could look forward to years of being dragged from court to court while the sharks snapped at each other over legal niceties and counted their money.Meanwhile, what does it say about crime detection and the court system when, as you say, about 13% of those executed were subsequently found to be innocent? Are you, or any other well informed person, going to deny that the entire criminal justice system is not working? Would it be insane to suggest the entire system is corrupt? Or, most frightening of all, would it be utterly stupid to suggest that our great societies on both sides of the pond have lost the plot because of unrecognized - though clearly detectable - moral and social breakdown?Capital crimes would cease to cost an estimated $2.3 million per case if the insanity of drawn out legal arguments was brought to an end. If the police are incapable of catching capital criminals with the proverbial ”smoking gun’ then they should be sacked. If, on the other hand, the police got as smart as the suspects and their attorneys then costs of death penalties would plummet and - lo and behold - the death penalty would begin to take its respectful place in the minds of all citizens and - eventually - capital crimes would diminish simply because the truly guilty would incur true justice.Incidentally, I asked you a direct question in my message 54. Perhaps you will be kind enough to share your thoughts on the staggering increase in drugs and drug associated crime.

Are you seriously saying the Supreme Court condones execution of people who have been proved innocent after their initial conviction?Even allowing for stay of execution that suggests life imprisonment for an innocent person. Surely that cannot be true in the land of the free and the home of the brave!! You must be joking!

I now have to concede that the death penalty should be abandoned in every state - except in the cases of those cynical bastards who corrupted our legal systems and continue to do so with impunity. They are truly worthy of removal from every level of influence.

I suspect there are many more reasons why people take drugs. You ought to be aware that drug abuse is wide spread among the rich and poor. There is no class barrier. The idea that only the poor are addicted is nonsense. The poor are simply brushed aside, as always.I cannot escape the conviction that we - societies in general - are not prepared to examine the deeper causes of drug & alcohol abuse, suicides, increasing violence - particularly among the young - and increasing moral collapse of family and community structures. In other words societies are in complete denial. We are not willing to bite the bullet and accept the mess we are in - created by ourselves. I repeat what I said earlier; we reap what we sow and get what we deserve. I have growing contempt for the social engineers, politicians and money grabbers who cynically contribute to the obvious failures in all societies. If you think seriously about it, all our lives suck. We are sleep walking through it all, pretending that wealth creation alone is the answer to every problem facing mankind.It's difficult to comprehend that the most intelligent and creative species on this planet can also be so stupid and not know it!

Are you saying there is more reporting of violent crime than there was previously and that violent crime is even less than 30 years ago, when reporting was not so prevalent? That sounds strange.