Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP

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I disagree that we need to be "absolutely sure". As long as we keep some measure of error rates under some percentage (0.5%?), then we're fine. If we can't do it, then the system is too impractical to use.

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I consider that an immoral position.Putting innocent people to death is never, ever OK.Not even once is OK.I don't buy your argument that because some innocent dies somewhere due to a US goverment policy is the same as actively electrocuting someone by mistake.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

Omni's reply reflects my position admirably.

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I cannot escape the conviction that we - societies in general - are not prepared to examine the deeper causes of drug & alcohol abuse, suicides, increasing violence - particularly among the young - and increasing moral collapse of family and community structures.

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Crime, especially violent crime, and especially crime among teenagers, is actually at something like a 30-year low in the US.However, the reporting of crime, especially violent crime, is much more prevalent than it used to be.

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Let me rephrase this as well. Despite my efforts--political (voting and speaking out) and personal (contributing time and money to reform efforts, famine relief, volunteering as mentor and food kitchen worker), the world remains full of unjust death. I feel as bad about that as I do about the innocent being executed. It is morally incumbent upon me to resist both. I do. Your argument seems to suggest that since one cannot resist all the injustice in the world, one should not resist any of it.

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This is the crux.If I am reading Ben correctly, he seems to be saying that because doesn't care about the lives of the innocents who die due to the unintentional consequences of global or national policies, he doesn't care about executing innocent people either.Sort of like, "I can't save any of those people, so I've decided to not care what happens to them."That attitude is, to me, deeply immoral.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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I read Ben as saying that we live in an imperfect world, and our system of justice depends on imperfect human judgements. Therefore perfection is unachievable. The aim should be to have a very low rate of wrongful conviction, not an unachievable zero rate. I also read Ben as being concerned about wrongful convictions in cases of long prison sentences, not just in capital cases.

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I largely agree with Ben on this. The only way to completely eliminate conviction of innocent people is to shut down our justice system. But if we do that, it will be replaced by street justice, also resulting in punishment of innocent people.

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We were not talking about convicting innocent people.This is unavoidable, as you say.We were talking about putting them to deathThis is, most certainly avoidable.And, I do agree that our system is imperfect, and that is exactly why we should not be putting anyone to death.Edited by schrafinator, : quote box fixEdited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Are you saying there is more reporting of violent crime than there was previously and that violent crime is even less than 30 years ago, when reporting was not so prevalent?

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Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

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That sounds strange.

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Yey it is true, at least in the US.Sensationalism gets people's attention, and since deregulation and the consolidation of so many news sources into huge multinationals like Disney and Time/Warner, the mainstream news has become about making money rather than engaging in real journalism for the public good.

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For example, how can you be certain that violent crime is as low as you say if your source if information is the media?

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Because my source for that information isn't the media.I look at government law enforcement statistics and various other soures.

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Are you and others aware of what is happening in Guantanamo?

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As much as I can be. I cannot speak for others.

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Are you aware of the damage the Bush administration has done to our nation's reputation abroad?

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As much as I can be.

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The media usually obtain their crime statistic information from the federal government.

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This may be true, but you certainly do not see the media reporting that violent crime is at a 30 year low every other day, do you?In fact, I don't think that most local and national network news worries about national trends that much; they just report as many arsons, sensational murders, shootings, and kidnappings as possible because it keeps people watching.This gives the impression of crime being high.

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Since you asked directly in response to my post, I felt compelled to answer. However, IMO if you want me to disagree with you, you're going to have to post something substantially worse than the last several hundred I have read.

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