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Author Topic:   Could this really have happened?
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 24 of 159 (318473)
06-06-2006 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Teets_Creationist
06-06-2006 7:36 PM


Teets_Creationist writes:
The pharaoh would have never asked this, because as far as he was concerned, they weren't using the midwives at all!
That doesn't make any sense. Pharoah must have known that the Hebrews were using the midwives, or he wouldn't have told the midwives to do the killing.
The midwives' excuse for not doing the killing was that the babies were born before they got there. They didn't kill any of the babies. They claimed that they were always too late.
The sensible question for Pharoah to ask would have been, "Why do they call you midwives at all if you're not going to get there in time?"

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 159 (318794)
06-07-2006 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by riVeRraT
06-07-2006 12:47 PM


riVeRraT writes:
He did not get his power back from his hair growning back....
Then why does the Bible even mention his hair growing back? The implication seems clear that it was the hair and the prayer.
Anyway, the Philistines thought his power came from his hair. They might not have anticipated his ability to pray without benefit of clergy, but they ought to have noticed the hair.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 06-07-2006 12:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 159 (318885)
06-07-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by riVeRraT
06-07-2006 4:57 PM


riVeRraT writes:
It was from his hair. But not the hair itself. That was just a symbol.
I'm not arguing with your interpretation.
What I'm saying is that the Philistines didn't know it was just a symbol. They didn't know that Samson's power came from God - they didn't even believe that Samson's God was the real God. They thought it was all about the hair.
So why would they just let it grow back? Huge plot hole.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by lfen, posted 06-07-2006 10:57 PM ringo has replied
 Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2006 7:42 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 159 (318960)
06-08-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by lfen
06-07-2006 10:57 PM


lfen writes:
I for one am not going to complain about the Philistine's stupidity in the story.
Yes, a dramatic death scene, with "a cast of thousands" is good box office. I wonder how long the Bible would have lasted without that kind of embellishment. Samson getting his weekly haircut in prison wouldn't be much of a page-turner.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 159 (319054)
06-08-2006 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by riVeRraT
06-08-2006 7:42 AM


riVeRraT writes:
They were dumb enough to believe it was in the hair in the first place.
You're not answering the question: if they were dumb enough to think Samson's hair had magic powers, why wouldn't they cut his hair off?
If somebody is dumb enough to think there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, why wouldn't they go look for it? If somebody is dumb enough to think a copper bracelet cures arthritis, why wouldn't they wear one?
The story is implausible because the dumb people don't follow the dumb illogic of their own dumb ideas.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 159 (319221)
06-08-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by riVeRraT
06-08-2006 4:27 PM


riVeRraT writes:
Story makes no reference that his power would return if his hair grew back.
But that's what the Philistines thought.
Put yourself in their position. Delilah had told them that Samson's power was in his hair. Why would they cut it once to capture him and then just let it grow back?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2006 4:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2006 11:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 159 (319401)
06-09-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by riVeRraT
06-08-2006 11:08 PM


riVeRraT writes:
... it is obvious from this fact that the Philistines knew exactly what they were doing, and knew his power had left him for good....
It's obvious that they didn't know what they were doing, since he killed them all. It's also obvious that his power hadn't left him for good.
The strength was in his birth hair, not just his hair.
The strength wasn't in his hair at all, but the Philistines thought it was. So the obvious question is, "Why would they let his hair grow back?" They would have thought that the hair would bring back his strength and he would kill them.
There is no evidence that the pharohs brain was soft. He made an intelligent decision, which led to the loss of Samson's strength.
You're confusing two stories again.

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 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2006 11:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 8:36 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 159 (319570)
06-09-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 8:36 AM


riVeRraT writes:
They wouldn't have thought that since he would never regain his birth hair.
Read my lips: They did not assiciate Samson's strength with his "birth hair". They associated his strength with his hair, period.
Remember, he told the girl, a razor was never taken to his head.
Irrelevant. That only means he had always been strong because he always had hair. There is no reason to add your idea about "birth hair".
(Anyway, wouldn't it have been a sensible backup plan to keep his head shaved, "just in case"?)
Examine the facts again. But this time try to make sense of them.
That's kinda the whole point of the thread: you can't make sense of an inherently nonsensical story. Making up stuff about "birth hair" and trying to shoehorn it in is no way to read the Bible.
Any prudent Philistine with half a brain would have kept Samson's head shaved.
Of course, Samson was no mental giant either.
Three times Delilah asked him the secret of his strength. Three times he lied to her. Three times, she tied him up and the Philistines tried to capture him. Three times he managed to escape and he was still too lame-brained to stop it from happening a fourth time.
It's things like that that make it a good story, but piss-poor history.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 8:36 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 2:28 PM ringo has replied
 Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 5:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 63 of 159 (319579)
06-09-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
06-09-2006 2:28 PM


Re: hair today goon tomorrow
jar writes:
I have a 'birth hair'. If I cut that 'birth hair' and it grows back is it no longer the same hair?
I'm no biologist, but I've grown a crop of hair in my time. As I understand it, it would still be the same hair (same follicle).
I doubt that the Philistines would have put that fine a point on it, though. Hair is hair. Bald is beautiful. Better safe than sorry.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 159 (319647)
06-09-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 5:28 PM


riVeRraT writes:
... the power was in the birth hair, and the Philistines knew it....
As jar has pointed out, his "birth hair" is his hair. It's the same hair, whether you cut it or not. So get off that nonsense about "birth hair".
Yes, the Philistines "knew" his power was in his hair (his hair, not his "birth hair"), so they would/should have had the sense to keep it shaved.
...the power did not return when his hair grew back....
You're still looking at it from your viewpoint instead of the Philistines' viewpoint. As far as they were concerned, Samson's power was in his hair - so they cut off his hair to rob him of his power. They didn't have any silly notions about "birth hair". They didn't know whether Samson had a covenant with his god or not. They didn't care - they didn't even believe in Samson's god. As far as they were concerned, Samson's power was in his hair and nowhere else.
From the Philistines' viewpoint, the hair growing back would obviously give him his power back. From the Philistines' viewpoint, that's where his power came from, remember?
Dirty Harry's power comes from his .44 magnum, "the most powerful handgun in the world", right? If the bad guys take his gun away, he loses his power, right? Do you think they would be stupid enough to just give it back to him, knowing that it was the source of his power?
From the Philistines' viewpoint, Samson's power did come back when his hair grew back.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 5:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 6:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 159 (319654)
06-09-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 6:50 PM


riVeRraT writes:
What sense does it make to mention this, and what function does it have in the story.
Every blessed line in the story doen't have to be pivotal. Some of it is just there for interest. Look at Samson carrying away the gates of the city. Comic relief - not essential to the plot.
Also, why are you totally ignoring it?
Because it's totally irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
I did not have a viewpoint on this when I entered this thread.
Neither did I. I never noticed how nonsensical it was until Brian pointed it out. Now you're making it even more nonsensical.

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 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 6:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 159 (319656)
06-09-2006 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Brian
06-09-2006 6:56 PM


Re: You are just making things up
Brian writes:
To follow your version it would be more plausible if the hair growing back was not mentioned....
At the feast, somebody should have pointed at Samson and yelled out, "Oh, my God! His hair's grown back!" Then everybody would gasp and panic - but too late.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 159 (319940)
06-10-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by riVeRraT
06-10-2006 9:13 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Every blessed line in the story doen't have to be pivotal. Some of it is just there for interest.
Your making that up too, and adding to the story.
I'm not making anything up or adding anything. I'm just suggesting that some parts of the story are not vital - like in any story.
In The Lord of the Rings, does it really matter what kind of cake they had at Bilbo's birthday party? Does it really matter what colour Aragorn's cloak was?
Every good story has more to it than just a synopsis of the plot.
Because it's totally irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
Maybe the one your discussing, but the one I am.
The story you're discussing is full of made-up nonsense like "birth hair". The story I'm discussing is just what's in the Bible.
(Message 83) So I asked myself, if the strength was in the hair, then why did Samson need to call out to God again, "just this once" and ask for strength.
You're still missing the point that everybody is trying to explain to you:
Samson believed that his strength came from God, so he asked God to give him strength again - but the Philistines didn't know that. They thought his strength came from his hair.
That's the whole point of this discussion: since the Philistines thought his strength came from his hair, they would have kept it shaved off.
It just doesn't matter where his strength really came from. It was what the Philistines believed that determined their actions.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 9:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 11:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 159 (320344)
06-11-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by riVeRraT
06-10-2006 11:27 PM


riVeRraT writes:
...why would you throw out the part of the story that is providing us with information that will influence the outcome of this debate?
Razor to Samons head is what the ring is to the Lord of the Rings.
Nonsense. "Razor to head" is utterly, 100% irrelevant to the story of Samson. Samson could have had a haircut last week and the story would still be the same. They thought his strength was in his hair, so they cut it off. It doesn't matter how long his hair was, when he had last had it cut, what colour it was, what brand of shampoo he used. To the Philistines, hair = bad, bald = good. Period.
And the hair was there since when?
Doesn't matter. The point is hair or no hair. Nothing else.
Once cut, the power was gone FOREVER in the eys of the Philistines.
Nonsense. Samson told Delilah, "I have never had a haircut," and "my strength is in my hair." Delilah conveyed those two statements to the Philistines. There is nothing whatsover in the Bible that suggests in any way, shape or form, by any stretch of the imagination that cutting his hair would destroy his power forever.
Just the opposite. The clear implication is that they would have to keep his hair cut to deprive him of his strength.
... my 9 year old picked my version when I presented both cases from a moderaters perspective.
Interesting. I saw Peter, Paul and Moses playing ring around the roses - and they all thought your version was ludicrous. Peter was particularly amused by the "birth hair" thing.
It just doesn't matter where his strength really came from.
Not to the Philistines, only to us, and Samson.
And again, that is the point here: It was the Philistines who would have cut or not cut Samson's hair, based on what they thought - not based on what Samson thought or what you think.
Get that through your head: the "birth hair" is irrelevant. The "never touched a razor" is irrelevant. Samson calling out to God is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that the Philistines thought his strength was in his hair. Therefore, they would have kept it shaved off.
The Philistines believed they only had to cut his hair once, because it was never cut since birth.
Nonsense. The Bible says no such thing. They thought the power was in his hair. Period.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 11:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2006 12:36 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 91 of 159 (320389)
06-11-2006 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by riVeRraT
06-11-2006 12:36 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Nothing would destroy his power forever?
Show us in the Bible where it says one single solitary thing about his strength being destroyed "forever". Chapter and verse.
Tell me, how would he get back his hair that was with him since birth?
Uh... it grows back naturally.
because he did not regain his strength after it grew back.
Of course he did. He used it to destroy the temple and kill all the Philistines.
Yes, based on what Samson told them. That it was his hair from birth. Cut it, gone for good....
Nope. That's not what it says at all - not one single, solitary, blessed mother-f**king word about it being "gone for good".
The "never touched a razor" is irrelevant.
You have not made a case why.
You are the one who claims it is relevant. You are the one who needs to back up that claim. Give us chapter and verse where it says the "birth hair" has any significance at all. Give us chapter and verse where it says his strength would be lost forever.
If your right, then that measn the Philistines were retarded....
Congratulations. You've made it to page one. That's the point of the thread.
... they didn't need Samson's strength to defeat them. They could have just told them some lame story and killed them all.
I have no idea what that means. Can you translate it into English?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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