Why does the USA have so many people in jail?

In 2004: Steven Camorata, Director of Research for the Center for Immigration Studies said "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

EZscience Absolutely I agree.However my beef is not with the prisoners as they are who they are and will respond or not respond to treatment. My beef is with a justice system that wastes time and resources uneccessarily and has no real direction nor logic behind the seemingly endless paperwork and study after study to look at the problem rather than looking at the actual situation.I resided in Agassiz a few miles away from Kent Maximum and we had escapes at least once and sometimes twice a year. I even ended up detained by the RCMP in Mission BC after an escape had occured because I had fit the description of the prisoner.I would have been detained longer except I had friends on the force who vouched for me.I do have pointed biases and opinions concerning criminals. I am absolutely against the attempt to rehabilitate child molesterers and I also understand that the people themselves are likely incapable of controlling themselves. I am also of the opinion that they cannot spend their entire lives in jail.That said I feel that this is what should be done. They should brand these people with some indelible mark in several locations and allow them to live where they please upon release.This prevents the inevitable difficulty presented to the police and justice system of trying to find a place for these people to live since no one wants them in their area. With the mark they are then allowed to function in all other areas of their lives and live where they want but not to be allowed near children whatsoever without adults present.This allows people the opportunity to contribute to society in work and otherwise but provides a safe means of regulating their access to those children whom they cannot help wishing to prey upon.

I think the answer is a mixture of causes.1) The US has moved into a parental moralist society such that what "I don't like" or "might prevent one from achieving absolute total success in life" must be made illegal. It is more so than some other nations, but intolerance is catching on all over. Ironically some decrying it, even here in this thread, turn around and advocate it for the moral lapses they don't like (hey how about legalized prostitution?). Thus its unlikely to change in the US very soon.2) The US does have a more vigilant or aggressive system, especially against its lowest class members.3) The US (unlike many other nations) does glamorize independence or rebelliousness, while at the same time punishment for independence. Not to mention we hype fame and give fame to criminals more than hardworkers. Sort of a self-feeding system.4) Other nations may use punitive measures that do not involve prison time. The US seems to like the concept of "going to jail" as something meaningful, as if having been grounded really works for kids. And alternatively finds barbaric things like chopping off hands, whipping, caning, and executions for most crimes.Those last two might explain why China has a lower detention rate. The tend to downplay individualism and glorification of criminals and many crimes simply end in execution, whereas we hang on to them. They don't have to be, but I am. It pretty much rubs against the concepts I think this nation was founded on, and what I would like to see in a nation I am a part of.I don't think the gov't should be acting as moral authorities, nor trying to micromanage people's lives to weed out potential for failure. And certainly not by using the criminal system.But like I said, its the trend and this is about democracy. Is there anything you think people shouldn't be doing, or should be punished for doing, that does not have anything factually to do with someone being physically injured/robbed by someone else? Well others do to. Until societies get off that kick, or switch away from "jail time", this is what we'll see.

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holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

I agree that for an individual this may very well be true. Though appropriate may not be the same thing as efficient, useful, nor just.I think that's why revenge is not appropriate for the state. The state should be looking past emotions to concepts of rights, justice, efficiency, and utility.But I think you are right that humans have an almost inate sense of revenge when wronged, and it makes sense when that might really stop a person from doing something against you ever again... and it feels good. While I agree with your assessment that the DHS guy can't use socio-economic issues for his behavior, I do have to question your last two points.It didn't appear that he was using his position to try and get away with anything, nor that he could. He certainly didn't seem to be working to hamper investigations or somehow hide who he was so he could not be caught. Maybe the guy did it because he felt like he wanted to get off, and enjoyed it, and didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing.Frankly I don't as it had nothing to do with violating anyone's rights. And that raises the next question. What if it was a real 14 year old girl? In some states that's legal marrying age, or age of consent for sex (not sure if it is where they lived). Why would revenge be reasonable, and what would revenge consist of? The girl would have been just as complicit, and no actual activity occured between them.What if it had been a teen boy instead of a DHS official? Would revenge be appropriate then? If not, why not?Frankly I don't think my money is best spent on sending this guy to jail (based on what I have heard) for some period of time. Nor was anyone's money best spent on the officer trolling for potential pedophiles by posing as a young girl. The thread asks why we have so many in jail and this is one of the reasons. We go out of our way to look for and arrest people based on what might lead them (is correlated with) some other criminal behavior we might agree should be punished.{AbE: As a caveat, I may be missing some details of the DHS case which would might have it make more sense. As far as I was aware he chatted with an officer in a sexual way and wanted to see her on webcam. None of it coerced.}This message has been edited by holmes, 04-07-2006 12:21 PM

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holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

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Influx of criminals is just one reason to stop the inflow of illegal aliens.

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What is the estimated percentage of illegal aliens who come to the US with the intent to perpetrate crime?

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Low cost labor from illegal aliens, while nice for the employers who can skip minimum wage laws, is overall a bad idea, especially in the long term.

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How much more are you willing to pay for your meat and produce at the grocery store?

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What's wrong with revenge?

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Revenge is childish and unproductive.It does nothing at all to solve the problem of crime.

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In 2004: Steven Camorata, Director of Research for the Center for Immigration Studies said "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

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OK, but how many of those people came here with the premeditated intent to do crime?

[Apologies if I am wandering childlike into the jaws of a monstrous irony - I'm notoriously bad at detecting it, especially in writing.]Personally I don't know what being tough on criminals, in the terms I imagine you are envisaging, achieves. I'm not sure how effective a deterrent it is, and I'm not sure what benefits eye for an eye justice bring to the victims. I'd actually be really interested if anyone can point me in the direction of any decent studies into these questions.I think the only real benefit from locking people up/judicial killing is that it prevents them from reoffending until their release/reincarnation. Another way to prevent them from reoffending would be effective behavioural therapy or quality education. Its just finding a way to do this effectively that's the tricky bit. But the end result - a functioning or semi-functioning member of society back, rather than a disfunctional one locked away - sounds really attractive, and to me seems worth pursuing.In my squishy caramel core it seems barbarous to treat people ill who have been made criminal through ill treatment. It seems barbarous to treat people ill who have been made criminal through mental illness. I guess that leaves people who are criminal.. through necessity? Through the influence of their peers? I think its barbarous to treat them ill too.I don't really believe in evil. It doesn't make sense to me. I can only understand people's actions as consequences of earlier events, and not as the result of some amorphous cloud of badness.Personally I don't think someone who poisons the water supply of a major city and kills tens or even hundreds of thousands of people should face the death penalty. Perhaps that makes me seem eccentric, but I genuinely don't see how that would help.

The treatment of child molesters in our society is one of the more difficult questions for us to deal with.Personally I think your "scarlet letter" approach leads inevitably to social exclusion at best, and probably a lynching and I don't agree with it.I don't have any facts with which to back this up (I would love to know where to find them if they exist) but I have got the idea from somewhere that abusers were often abused themselves. You cant just give a child molestor a pat on the back and commiserate with them about their abusive childhood when they rape a small child, but at the same time, it strikes me as monumentally inconsistent to lumber someone with victim status and all that goes with it until they reach adulthood, when they fail to resist the sexual urges that dominate their life, and then to brand them a monster.

I'm going to have to call you on this Crash.Revenge might be a self-gratifying emotion for individuals, but it cannot be used as a premise for a legal system or society's system for dealing with crime. Society needs to set a higher example for people to follow.How much revenge is enough? Too much?
How can revenge be balanced in a justice system?
Wouldn't we end up subjecting criminals to crime?
How is any kind of sanctioned revenge going to set an example for society to follow?Besides, do you really think that if we had a better system of delivering 'revenge' to criminals that this would have an impact on the crime rate?

The fact we also have illegal aliens in jail is only one byproduct of the system that puts so many people in jail in the first place.
We can't hold them accountable for our system - they can't even vote.
Also, remember that, once in jail, they will be turned over to Immigration upon their release and deported.
The fact we have so many in jail is probably partly a function of our wide definitions of crime and partly a function of how ridiculously long we put people away for.
Why not just deport them right away instead of paying to keep them in jail?

I completely agree.
I can think of two things right off that no one should have to go to jail for:
A drug habit.
Prostitution.Ever consider why marijuana isn't legal while hundreds of toxic synthetic drugs are available by prescription?Pretty much anyone could grow it easily so there's no effective way for the government to tax it (as they do alcohol and tobacco, both of which are obviously more damaging) and no money to be made from it by our parasitic pharmaceutical industry.

It produces justice. How is that unproductive? No, it does. It punishes offenders and acts as a deterrent in many cases. And it's a crucial step that heals victims.

Now I can see from where you live you are probably up against this problem more directly than most of us, but consider this.Most of the 12 million illegals are actually here because they are willing to do work that NO American would do.Would you clean hotel rooms for $2.67 per room?
That's what they pay at the Comfort Inn here in town.
Ever picked oranges? Tough, dirty work and the trees are spiny as hell. I can tell you right now, without migrant farm labor fresh market citrus would go unpicked in Florida.
As Schraf noted, ALL your produce and food would increase in price,
not to mention the cost of a hotel room and many other services.
These people would not be here if we didn't have the jobs for them. OK, now you have got me in the extremely uncomfortable position of having to defend a Republican policy {{{shiver}}}But it is NOT an 'amnesty program'.
That phrase is the real spin job being done by the radical right.Look at the facts.The process will take them 9 years. (!!)
(It actually took me that long in US before I got my green card legally, and I had a Ph.D. when I got here, but I don't resent them that opportunity)
They have to pay restitution of about $2,000.
They have to maintain continuous employment for that period.
They will have to have a spotless record of behavior.
And there are even more requirements I can't remember.Nothing is being given to these people for free.
It is merely a good faith effort to get them to 'come in from the cold' and become full participants in society.So I suppose you support putting more people in jail by creating a whole new class of felons, including any good samaritan who would help an illegal alien?
Wouldn't that just give us an even bigger prison population to care for?
Oh, yeah, and build a longer fence. Yep - that'll work.This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-07-2006 09:17 AM