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Author Topic:   Why does the USA have so many people in jail?
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 1 of 129 (301493)
04-06-2006 10:30 AM


I came across this article today on the BBC site.
I am interested to hear everyone's ideas about why US has more people in jail than any other country in the world - and more per capita than either Russia or China which we tend to view as punitive countries with less respect for human rights.
Is it because we have more crime or because we define crime more broadly?
Is it because we have more criminals or because we have more aggressive law enforcement?
Or is it merely a reflexion of cultural influences on youth that are stronger in the US than elsewhere, e.g. Hollywood glamorization of crime or some such?
Shouldn't Americans be ashamed of this statistic, and if not, why not?

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 129 (301495)
04-06-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by EZscience
04-06-2006 10:30 AM


Don't know how this lines up against other countries, but it could have something to do with the fact that more than 20% of the federal prisoners are in on low-level, non-violent drug offenses.
So yes. We should absolutely be ashamed of locking people up for no discernable reason.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 129 (301499)
04-06-2006 10:47 AM


Too soft
I would like to see the UK following USA's example and giving people heavy prison sentences instead of the namby pamby punishments that are dealt out to criminals here just now.
We are far too soft on criminals here and more often than not the criminal is treated better than the victim!! There is so much help for criminals, yet counselling services for victims are virtually non existant.
Brian.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 4 of 129 (301507)
04-06-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
04-06-2006 10:47 AM


Re: Too soft
So you would like to see more people in jail in Soctland?
If you click over to the page "UK and Western Europe" you will see that, per capita, England and Wales are No. 1 in W. Europe for incarcerating people, with Scotland in third place.
So you seem to be quite good at locking people up already.
But let's not morph this into an argument for or against rehabilitation efforts (remember, unless they are on death row, you have to let them out sooner or later, so we are all better off if they get some training and counselling while in prison).
What we are interested in is the question 'why'.
I have a strong personal inclination that DCA is right.
We have far too many people in jail in the US for minor drug offenses that do not constitute a real crime against anyone.
I am tempted to take the position that we are locking far too many people up because of our over-zealous definitions of crime.
(Now I guess the conservatives will come out of the woodwork and challenge that - given that they are the ones that like to make everything a crime that they happen to frown on).

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 5 of 129 (301517)
04-06-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by EZscience
04-06-2006 10:30 AM


Like Dan said. This town has a prison with a couple of thousand prisoners, and a large majority of them are there for drug possesion and the like. There's one guy there who was caught with a joint (in the joint) and got 60 years for it. Sixty. Years.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 129 (301518)
04-06-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
04-06-2006 10:47 AM


Re: Too soft
Brian
There is so much help for criminals, yet counselling services for
victims are virtually non existant.
I have to agree with you on this Brian. The same holds true for Canada. I think the fact of the matter is that it is a Big business and a such they look after themselves first and the justice second.
I have never understood several things as pertains to our Justice system. One is upon sentencing for crimes if there are several counts of the same crime the criminal will often get a sentence for each one in particular{and the time and effort to present each individual account} and then the judge will rule that the criminal serve the sentences concurrently. For instance if a man has two or three counts are of the same duration they are rolled together and served as though it were a single count. So if he was counted 3 years for each offense he would not get 6 or 9 years but only 3 years.
Another one had to do with an actual incident where a man stole a truck and used it cuase property damage upward of 10,000 dollars as well as to attempt to run a police officer down along the way. When he got to court the whole thing was thrown out.The reason?
On the list of charges the person who's truck was stolen did not list him as the owner of the vehicle.This is because he had just purchased it the previous weekend and had not yet had all the paper work transferred. Since he is the one who reported his truck as stolen yet in the eyes of the law he was not the owner the case was thrown out.
WTF has the Frigging ownership of the STOLEN vehicle to do with the guilt or innocence of the defendant? Yet another bullshit loophole that is allowed to trip the system up.
I would not even bother to charge a person who stole from me after the police caught him. I would simply find him on a later date and recover damages myself.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 7 of 129 (301562)
04-06-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by EZscience
04-06-2006 10:30 AM


I personally am sickened by the amount of poor nobodies in prison.
Our justice system favors the rich and well-known. If you have the money or know the right people (e.g., Arizona camp counselors ) or even if you are 'too hot,' you generally serve less time or no time. Not to mention the bevy of movie stars, professional athletes, and musicians who get off scot free time after time - at least while they are popular.
Somehow, if you are successful, you are a better person and more worthy of forgiveness than if you are poor... and non-white.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 129 (301565)
04-06-2006 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
04-06-2006 11:24 AM


O Canada, where art thou?
I'm curious about why Canada isn't on the BBC list at all. Apparently, we have about 32,000 prisoners, which should put us above Australia, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 9 of 129 (301567)
04-06-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by roxrkool
04-06-2006 12:51 PM


A different brand of justice for celebrities and the rich
Yes, we have plenty of recent examples of how those who can afford the best legal advice can buy the justice system in America.
OJ Simpson, that Beretta guy, and Michael Jackson all come to mind.
It would also be revealing to post the racial breakdown of our jail population. I know I have seen these stats out there but I don't have time to try and track them down right now. I know that black males under 30 are highly represented.
So people below might be inclined to rail against some criminals getting off too easily, but are we really putting the right people in jail most of the time? I suspect not.
I remember once a long time ago Keith Richards was busted at an airport with heroin and the judge made the Stones do some benefit concert by way of recompense. I wonder he would have to do for a joint? Maybe one song? Certainly not 60 years.
America has become way too punitive when it comes to punishing behavior deemed socially undesirable, but which really falls short of a reasonable definition of crime. It's another influence from the Christian Right. The poor are disproportionately disenfranchized from protection in this enterprise because the legal system is set up to work well only for those who can afford it.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 129 (301573)
04-06-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by EZscience
04-06-2006 1:06 PM


Re: A different brand of justice for celebrities and the rich
It would also be revealing to post the racial breakdown of our jail population.
Pretty frightening, I'm sure. Hispanic men are hugely overrepresented here in Texas, too. And I saw numbers 20 years ago about Watonga, Oklahoma: Native Americans made up 12% or so of the population but accounted for 90% of all arrests. No "profiling" there...

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 11 of 129 (301590)
04-06-2006 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-06-2006 1:00 PM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
Ringo
That is because we do not call them prisoners but vacationers.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 12 of 129 (301640)
04-06-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-06-2006 1:00 PM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
Actually, from that link,
quote:
133 per 100,000 adult population.
While this number reflects a decrease in incarceration rates for eight years in a row, it still represents an increase over the last decade.
The number of Aboriginal prisoners, women in prison and youth in detention continues to increase.
On any given day in Canada during 2001-2002...
An average of 155 000 individuals were under the supervision of Correctional Service Agencies in Canada. (a 2% increase from 2000-2001).
There were approximately 32 000 adults prisoners in custody. These totals include both federal and provincial prisoners.
That rate of 133 / 100,000 is slightly lower than England and almost identical to Scotland.
This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-06-2006 02:16 PM

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 13 of 129 (301646)
04-06-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sidelined
04-06-2006 2:03 PM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
Yes, lower security Canadian jails can look a lot like country clubs - but you still can't leave. You could argue they are too generous to prisoners - a lot of people do, but you can only be so punitive before you begin defeating all opportunity for rehabilitation. You have to let people out some day. Keep in mind, higher security prisoners have to earn the right to transfer to lower security facilities to enjoy the benfits and can be transfered back if they abuse them. I wonder if you and Brian would like to take all incentives away for rehab and simply dump high-security inmates straight back on the street when their sentences are up?
Because you have to provide some opportunities for benefits to create incentives for good behavior and rehab.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 14 of 129 (301656)
04-06-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coragyps
04-06-2006 1:20 PM


Re: A different brand of justice for celebrities and the rich
I found 2004 stats for the US federal prison system .
quote:
At yearend 2004 there were 3,218 black male sentenced prison inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,220 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 463 white male inmates per 100,000 white males.
So we lock up almost 7 X more black men than white men and 2.6 X more hispanic men.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 15 of 129 (301661)
04-06-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by EZscience
04-06-2006 3:13 PM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
EZscience
You have to let people out some day. Keep in mind, higher security prisoners have to earn the right to transfer to lower security facilities to enjoy the benfits and can be transfered back if they abuse them.
But the damage they do in the meanime is not acceptable. We had an escape many years ago in the Fraser valley by a prisoner serving time in a minimum security facility after transfer for murder? from a maximum security prison.
While on day pass in Chilliwack under guard this individual escaped custody and was gone for days. In the meantime he managed to enetr onto the area I lived where he subsequently broke in on an elerly lady whom he strapped to a chair and tortured.
When her son{a good friend came home my fiend was killed in the ensuing struggle and his mother managed to escape,run a quarter mile to the nearby shake mill and have police respond.
She died of wounds in hospital 4 days later.
The prisoner had been at large for 3 days and no attempt was made to warn the public for fear of the response.

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