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Author Topic:   Where do the buddhists go?
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6468 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 27 of 69 (296483)
03-18-2006 1:41 PM


Salvation by faith alone, or by faith and works, in Christianity?
From GotQestions.org:
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life - then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
The above probably represents the views of most fundamentalist and many evangelical Christians. It seems to state that, if you are not a "true" Christian, you will not have the motivation to do good works. I think that many Christians, and certainly atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, and practitioners of Eastern religions would strongly disagree with this.
Since the Bible passages are cited but not quoted above, let me quote them below:
"We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." - Romans 3:28 (ASV)
Comment: This talks about works of the law. What about works not specifically mentioned by the Old Testament Jewish law (presumably what Paul means here)?
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." - Romans 5:1, 2 (KJV)
Comment: The passage is silent with regard to works, and an argument from silence is a dangerous thing, IMHO.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." - Galatians 3:24 (KJV)
Comment: Like the citation from Romans, this talks about the law, but not about whether one can be saved by performing good works in general.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:24 (KJV)
Comment: James is unambiguous here; yet I have heard some Christians insist that faith "may" show itself in good works (i.e., if the person has faith, it is possible--though not necessary--for them to show it by doing good works).
Note also that James does not dismiss faith as a requirement for justification.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8, 9 (KJV)
Paul's comment here seems to directly contradict James. Paul seems to be saying that faith leads to grace, which in turn leads to salvation. (One might debate the faith and grace order, but that's a topic for another discussion.) Nowhere does Paul mention works.
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." - James 2:17, 18 (KJV)
Comment: I need to see this in a modern translation. The language is a bit tricky here.
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
"But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." - James 2:17, 18 (NKJV)
Comment: A little easier to understand. It still seems that James is saying that without works, faith is dead.
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was *accounted to him for righteousness.' And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
"Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:20-26 (NKJV)
Comment: It seems that James flatly disagrees with Paul's assertion that faith--and faith alone--in Jesus is enough for salvation. Works are a necessary part of the equation. However, neither Paul nor James addresses (at least in the passages quoted) what may happen to non-believers in either Christianity or Judaism (i.e., practitioners of other religions--unless they are simply dismissed as "pagans").

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by nwr, posted 03-18-2006 2:11 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6468 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 53 of 69 (297807)
03-24-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by 1.61803
03-23-2006 5:49 PM


Re: A buddist tale
A little girl is washing dishes with her grandmother. The girls is washing a bowl that has been in the family for centuries. It slips from her hands and breaks on the floor....The grand mother without batting a eye gets the broom and dust pan and sweeps the broken shards into the trash, and smiles to her mortified grandchild and says..."It was already broken." If you understand this you understand the buddist way of thinking.
Isn't that kind of like the blonde who gets a phone call early in the morning and, when asked by the caller if he woke her up, says, "It's ok, I had to answer the phone anyway"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by 1.61803, posted 03-23-2006 5:49 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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