General Flood Topic

And, TC, be sure to give a hypothesis as to where all that calcite/aragonite came from: the reaction that all known carbonate shell-builders use is (Ca+2) +2 (HCO3-) --> CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O. Total mass of carbonate rocks in the crust is estimated to be around 3.5 x 10^20 kilograms.[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 11-18-2002]

"Can you explain vast ages of chalk from a uniformitarianistic POV can you?
I'd love to hear that."I asked first.
It's already been explained: A shallow sea was where, for instance, the cliffs-of-Dover chalk is now back in the Cretaceous. The climate was warm, there was lots of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and conditions were good for coccolithophorids to grow. They grew, they died, and their tests settled to the seafloor. They piled up there, and compacted somewhat to make the layer that oil and gas comes out of now. This layer was buried by later sediments, deposited under different conditions.Now your turn.

Fast currents would have a hard time depositing sediments with such slow sinking times as coccolithophorid tests...particularly without mixing in silts and clays.
Are you positing all the carbonates in the world being laid down in the "flood year"?

TC or TB, (or any other Noah fan), I'd like an answer to post #3 above, please.

D'oh! I'm sorry, Randy! I shouda known that! Yeah, fast slow hot cold currents, that's the trick.....

Reposted from the thread about the dodo, where I first stuck it:What is quite thoroughly impossible is that a formation such as the chalk that makes up the White Cliffs of Dover, or the Austin Chalk here in Texas, could be deposited in a year, or a decade, or a millenium. You cannot grow enough of the calcium carbonate-shelled organisms fast enough to do it: you can't get enough sunlight, enough nutrients, enough bicarbonate. You can't get rid of the metabolic wastes. For example, just one immediately quantifiable waste, carbon dioxide:
The mass of carbonate rocks in the crust is about 3.5 x 10^20 kilograms: let's pretend that about half, 2 x 10^20 of this, was deposited in the Big Flood. The reaction for this is (Ca+2) + 2(HCO3-) = CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O. Along with the calcium carbonate, you'll form 8.8 x 10^19 kg of CO2, carbon dioxide. This is 53 times what the Earth's entire atmosphere weighs now, and about 160,000 times as much CO2 as our modern atmosphere now has. So Noah's atmospheric pressure would have been 800 psi, the oxygen content would have been below 0.5%, and the CO2 content over 98%.
Now you have all that flood water to dispose of, and over fifty atmospheres' worth of carbon dioxide to get rid of besides. That'll make a trainload of Coca-Cola, and a bunch of fire extinguishers besides.
Comments? Do you want to limit the Flood carbonates to only a tenth of what I assumed above? Do you want to know what the heat liberated by all that deposition amounts to, before we even start on the greenhouse effect?

bump![This message has been edited by Coragyps, 11-27-2002]

TC: I haven't been able to find the exact source of the total mass of the earth's crust, but Monroe & Wicanders Physical Geology claims 2.5 x 10^22 kg; I had originally used 2.37 x 10^22.
This site claims 2.6 x 10^22 kg.
About 2% of the crust, by volume, is carbonate rocks (calcite + dolomite) according to http://www.agu.org/reference/rock/4_best.pdf in his Table 4. As carbonate rocks are less dense than granite, I assumed this to equate to 1.5% by weight, or about 3.5 x 10^20 kg. The balanced reaction indicates that 100 kg of calcite will coproduce 44 kg of carbon dioxide as it precipitates.
This latter site says, "The source for carbonate sediments is almost exclusively biological," as do most geology books.
The present atmosphere weighs 5.1 x 10^18 kg, as given by the first link above.Run through the numbers. Errors will be cheerfully corrected.Compaction and rock purity are of no consequence in this calculation, and purely chemical precipitation of calcium carbonate, though geologically rare, uses the same reaction as I gave before anyway.[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 11-29-2002]

"Also, porosity effects density and carbonate porosities could be in the realm of 40-85%."
Errr... where? North Sea Chalk might get as high as 40% - other than chalk the very best, at least in oil reservoirs, are 15 to 20%, and typical around 10%. And that's just reservoirs, ignoring all the non-porous, non-permeable carbonates - marble, for instance, is around 0%."This latter site says, "The source for carbonate sediments is almost exclusively biological," as do most geology books."
--I can't find this quote. Though my sources say that it is around the realm of 90% being biologically induced, but that is a current estimate and we would be in post-flood times.----"Huh? Clarify."--I would also be interested in seeing how the value of 1.5% and .5% was found as a calcite function rather than the limestone/carbonate rock itself. After-all, these factors may vary significantly from formation to formation.--"The reference estimates thse fractions for calcite and dolomite, not whole rock.
Tell ya what, TC: Run the numbers for carbon dioxide production for 5% of that mass of limestone. Then propose a mechanism to cycle it all through the atmosphere/hydrosphere in one year.

TB, I read your last post or two on the "catch cries" thread. Start with my post #17 on this thread, please, and run through the calculations I presented to TC.

I'm back in town, and itchin' for an answer.

quote:

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It seems to me so far that there is sufficeint room to suggest that much of the calcium could have an inorganic origin.

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And tis affects the amount of carbon dioxide given of by its formatiom exactly how? The reaction at any realistic pH value is identical.

bump?

Bump! TC? TB? Are you out there?

Aw, c'mon guys!! Humor me! Tell me to buzz off, or tell me any reply would be beyond the edge of the Creationist worldview! Heck, attempt an answer, even!