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Author Topic:   the phylogeographic challenge to creationism
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 237 of 298 (266657)
12-07-2005 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by RAZD
12-07-2005 8:13 PM


Re: copy errors = mutations or random mistakes.
The other difference I see is that mutation affects single sites with {plus\minus\delta} possibilities (where delta is a substitution), while copy errors are ones that can reproduce whole segments of DNA, copies of necessary areas now able to become new features.
Strictly speaking, a "mutation" is any genetic sequence (or lack thereof) in an offspring that does not match the portion of genome inherited from its parent(s). A "copy error" simply means that the polymerase made a mistake during replication - what you are describing (a mutation that results in two copies of some DNA sequence) is a duplication mutation.
Subclassifying is definitely useful, but it is all still mutation. Even whole chromosome rearrangments/translocations are mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by RAZD, posted 12-07-2005 8:13 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by TimChase, posted 12-08-2005 10:12 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 262 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2005 6:44 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 249 of 298 (267033)
12-08-2005 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by TimChase
12-08-2005 10:12 PM


Re: copy errors = mutations or random mistakes.
But technically, from the perspective of genetics, it is interpretted not as a form of heredity, but as a mutation in the host genome.
Right. Of course, if the host reproduces and passes along the retroviral insertion to its progeny, that is heredity.
It is my understanding that even movement of a transpositional element already present in the genome is considered mutation.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 253 of 298 (267039)
12-08-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Iblis
12-08-2005 10:56 PM


I can't stop giggling, and I don't know why.
"No eggs in this one," said ZZaxx, slapping her hairy thigh.
Oh. My. God.
(welcome, by the way.)

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 265 of 298 (267335)
12-09-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by RAZD
12-09-2005 6:44 PM


clarifying mutation terms
does not include changes that have occurred in the parent DNA since it's inception ...
It does include most somatic mutations when you consider a daughter cell to be "offspring" of a parent cell (within the same organism); but to be clear I was specifically referring to mutation in the sense of heredity.
In any case, you seemed to be using "mutation" to specifically refer to single nucleotide changes/indels, which is incorrect terminology.
this is only copy errors by my definitions
You seemed to originally be using "copy errors" (incorrectly) to designate "duplications" -
while copy errors are ones that can reproduce whole segments of DNA, copies of necessary areas now able to become new features
These seemingly incorrect terms were the ones I wanted to clarify in my post; if this isn't how you were intending to use them, then it was a matter of miscommunication.
Really, a mutation is any change in the genome, no? From a single nucleotide change to whole genome duplication, it's all mutation.

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 Message 262 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2005 6:44 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 266 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2005 8:35 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 268 of 298 (267358)
12-09-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by RAZD
12-09-2005 8:35 PM


Re: clarifying mutation terms
Which should include all the changes in the DNA accumulated by the parent up to the moment of reproduction - the mutations in it's DNA that have occurred over time since it's {birth\inception}. You seemed to have only included changes during reproduction, hence the comment about overstatement.
Now that is you overstating the case quite a bit. The only mutations that the offspring of sexual reproduction will receive are those that end up in the haploid genome of the sperm/egg cell that intiates that offspring (for example mutations in the development/maintenance of the germ line). Definitely not all of the mutations that the parent itself accumulates from inception - quite the opposite - an extremely small number of the parent's total mutations will be passed on to its offspring.
I chose to distinguish between source changes (reflected in all offspring that get the gene (allowing for sex randomness)) and copy changes (reflected in single offspring). Calling it all mutation to me muddies the waters and is an unnecessary if not counterproductive oversimplification.
But it is all mutation, and it seems that your arbitrary use of terms and distinctions is what is muddying the waters.
After all, both "source changes" and "copy changes" are the result of "copy errors" using your definitions. (Talk about confusing things unnecessarily...)
Is your own invented terminology or are you getting it from some other source? I sure as hell have never heard these terms before.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 269 of 298 (267361)
12-09-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by RAZD
12-09-2005 8:40 PM


Re: copy errors =
In one case you have mutations - changes - happening to DNA in a random process independent of reproduction. Radiation whatever.
In the other case you have mistakes made in the replication of the DNA.
How is this difference arbitrary?
I don't know if arbitrary, but it seems incorrect?
Both radiation and replication error are sources of mutation in both somatic and germ cells, so your splitting sources of mutation by "independency of reproduction" does not seem valid.
Or do you mean single cell "reproduction" exclusively?

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 283 of 298 (270989)
12-20-2005 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by nwr
12-20-2005 12:45 AM


equilibrium
An excellent post, nwr, covering many important ideas concisely and understandably. I'll try to add some detail that hopefully you'll find interesting:
When there is very little diversity present, the factors that decrease diversity won't have much effect, since there isn't much to decrease. Thus the factors that increase diversity will tend to dominate. Conversely, if there is a lot of diversity, then the factors that decrease will tend to dominate.
Dobzhansky demonstrated this in the 1950's with fruit fly experiments. He took several pairs of fruit flies from a large colony and used them to seed new colonies - creating a series of severe bottlenecked populations. These bottlenecked populations consistently and rapidly became more phenotypically variable than the founder population, which stayed relatively stable. (This is one of those classic papers I wish I could find on-line...)
If a species is already well adapted to its environment, then it is to be expected that most mutations will be negative or neutral. This is a bit like the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." If things are working reasonably well, and something changes, the change is more likely to be for the worse.
Yes - this is called "normalizing" or "neutralizing" selection; that is, selection that maintains the status quo. Most species can be thought of as "optimized" given their long evolutionary histories - which is why we rarely directly observe beneficial mutations.
If the environment changes in such a way that the species is less well adapted to the changed environment then, as the paragraph above indicates, there will be more room for improvement so more of the random mutations will be beneficial.
That's when normalizing selection ceases - with a change to the environment. This is why our examples of recent beneficial mutations often are the result of new environments being created by man - mutations to resist pesticides or antibiotics, or to use a synthetic like nylon as a food source.

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 Message 282 by nwr, posted 12-20-2005 12:45 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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