How determined are you?

In reponse to a request from nwr I've posted this hereThere is, as far as we know, only matter in various forms, energy in various forms, laws of nature of various types. The laws of nature are taken to be immutable. And matter and energy simply conform to the laws of nature in predictable (if yet unknown) ways. That's all the evidence we have about the universe.If that is the case, the arrangement of every atom in the universe at this precise moment is a result only: of the interaction between the atoms themselves + the energy acting upon and within them + the laws of nature which caused them to be arranged in the particular pattern they held at the precise moment I mentioned a minute ago... things have moved on a little since then The arrangement of every atom / condition of every piece of energy at this instant, is a direct result of the arrangement in the instant before. IOW, whatever the arrangement was then was such so as to ensure that the arrangement in the next instant would be the one that would exist. There is nothing outside matter/energy/law to cause it to be any other way.If every arrangement of atoms/energy at any point in time is inevitably the result of some prior arrangement then we can go back until we arrive at the initial conditions which set it all off. These initial conditions can be picked arbitarily. 1 second ago, 1 year ago, a million years ago. It doesn't matter. At whatever point we draw a line, all subsequent arrangements of atoms;/energy were going to be whatever they transpired to be.Thus, there is no such thing as independant thought or action. Every thought or action was going to happen from whatever arrangement existed at say, a million years ago.This is what I call Determinism. If Determinisn is the way it is, then there is no absolute thing as you. 'You' are just an particular arrangement of matter/energy/laws - and every thought and action of yours is not yours - it's just another inevitable arrangement of atoms/energy - which was bound to happen from whatever initial conditions existed (whenever it is you draw a start line). Similarily, whatever thought you may have tomorrow is going to happen as a result of the arrangement of atoms/energy as they are nowTopics for discussion:If this brand of Determinism is the reality, how could it be that blind initial conditions resulted in a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws (us) arriving at the conclusion that they are a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws.If folk think everything isn't pre-determined along the lines laid out above, on what basis to they hold the view they do?This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 04:09 PM

Dunno if that helps Phat but it's a kind of a brain-twister no matter what happens. I've no idea where it should go but seeing as determinism is a belief system then Faith and Belief would be appropriate I guess.There's a couple of folk who replied to the original so I guess there is enough to get it going in itselfCheersIano

Fuck....Ever wish you'd kept your mouth shut? Guys and gals. I'm supposed to be doing my day job and have gotten into a bit of a tangle with Mr X elsewhere too.Can anyone do a brief explanation as to where, why or how, any arrangment of energy and/or matter is as it is at a moment in time - other than it being so as a result of conforming to the laws of nature that apply?Cos if there is no such thing then I might be on a runner hereAbE: will read through to see if there is something explained within that answers my question when i get a chanceThis message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 12:42 PM

I would have thought science can say what it can observe. Science can observe matter and energy conforming to the laws of nature in predictable ways (or decide that there are consistant laws of nature from observing the behaviour of matter/energy in controlled experiment. And when something unpredictable happens can it be said that it is due to non-conformance to the laws of nature. If the best answer is that matter and energy do fit the idea of determinism best then determinism would be a scientific theory rather than a philosophy Would these bundles of energy be subject to laws of nature and if not is there any scientific evidence to say matter/energy are not subject to the laws of nature?This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 02:49 PM

Curious. Is there any scientific evidence (observational or experimental) to indicate any of this? the last bit has me confused "...rather that being determining their behavior" could you clarify?

I don't know exactly what a planck time of 10 -43 second is. I'll presume that it is a very tiny amount of time. Now when you say the laws of physics no longer apply I presume you mean the equations and theories we have developed to explain what goes on around us. That they no longer apply means the problem is in the our tools ability to measure. Not that the laws of nature cease to operate in the way it operates at time 10 -43 and greater. Once the ball is hit, its destination certain. This could be computed if only there was a way to compute all the forces involved. The relatively limited computational power of the best human golfers brain can predict fairly accurately, Increase so as to know all forces acting and the precise point of landing is predictable before the ball has acutally landed. Prediction however has nothing to say about where the ball lands - it's only an observation of what is going to happen.If there is only matter/energy and laws which of these is going to act contra to the only way it can act under the circumstances. If all act only as they can then the ball can only land in one place. If they can act in various ways then what variant is there in the whole scenario?The inital condition being impact plus 1 second, the landing positon is already determined as I see it