General Flood Topic

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
I'm creating this thread to deviate discussions in the 'Buddika & TrueCreation's Flood Topic' and be concentrated here.

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--What could possibly be found that would be in support of a worldwide flood occurring at ~4,500 years ago? This is analogous to the notion that the earth is 4.6Ga. The notion relies almost completely on the consensus involving the nebulae hypothesis for solar cosmogeny, and isotopic geochemical evolution constraints in coherence with the nebulae hypothesis only beginning to be touched on and some which have yet to be grasped. Strictly, I don't think that there will or can be found direct evidence of such a global event or even a successful suggestion as to a method of determining whether there are or aren't direct evidences able to be scrutinized. That is to say, evidence of this scenario would be indirect in that a consensus can be attributed in explanation the worlds remnant and vestige formations.

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Are you taking English lessons from Brad McFall? This paragraph is nearly incomprehensible (to me, anyway). If you want to communicate with simple-minded people like me, please use small words, short sentences, commas, and explain things in baby-sized steps.If you want to start a debate thread here on Noah's Flood, I will participate. I will be a somewhat infrequent poster, however, due to the large amount of time required for thoughtful responses.If you are ready to begin, how about starting with number 10 first - the crinoid/Karoo dilemna? I'm sure you are familiar with the problem... there are hundreds of thousands of rock formations composed of mind-boggling numbers of fossils (most of them carbonate shells). If all these creatures were alive at the same time, they would have overcrowded the pre-Flood Earth to the point of blocking all sunlight over the entire surface. There is enough opacity (is that a word?) in the dead creatures of the geologic record to block the sun thousands of times over. Appealing to greater pre-Flood productivity is useless, unless you want to postulate sunlight that is strong enough to penetrate through hundreds of feet of brachiopods, clams, crinoids, corals, forams, etc.Your turn.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Why predominantly in one point in time and why so abrruptly at both interfaces? Why so incredibly enriched?

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This is more cartoon geology from the kindergarten class you had, apparently. The real world is more complicated.Sharp contacts are often the result of induration of erosional surfaces at unconformities. This might be one here:"The base of the Plenus Marls is a major erosion surface and sequence boundary, with Plenus Marls sediments piped down in burrows for up to 0.5 m into the underlying chalk of the White Bed. "
From http://www.geologyshop.co.uk/chalk1.htm#fig1While gradational contacts are common:"While the Cretaceous strata, within which the whole tunnel route is situated, includes sequences that differ greatly both in their characteristics and in their properties (overconsolidated clays, glauconitic marls, flinty chalks etc) and are therefore easy to distinguish from each other, they also include sequences whose boundaries are difficult to establish, as their changes in nature or properties are very gradual. Such is the case with the boundary between the Chalk Marl (Craie Bleue) and the overlying Grey Chalk and the boundaries between the flinty chalks of the Senonian and the flintless Turonian."
From Geology of the Channel Tunnel

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Our explanation?

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Same as yours, but the abruptness and enrichment are explained by catastrophic sorting. Fast currents can sort materials to high purity. It represented a stage in the flood and hence explains why we get this primarily at only a few points in the geo-col.

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Hmmm... it seems the chalks at Dover extend well past the age you have assigned to the Flood, and the CaCO3 content INCREASES after the end of your Flood... Would you or TC like to address the topic of this thread - specific falsifications of Flood Geology? I've already made my first point... all the creatures from your chalk formations could not be alive at the same time without shading each other to death, poisoning each other with CO2, consuming all available food many times over, etc, etc.

Coragyps has addressed the chemical reactions that you have to explain, TC... I will chime in to clarify this question you raised:

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--What data have you considered in deducing that I have to have enough organisms grow during their deposition?

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This follows from simple logic. Consider your model, TC, either:
(1). the creatures in the geologic record were deposited by normal non-Flood sedimentation before the Flood, or
(2). were all killed at the same time (and thus were all alive at the same time) and deposited DURING the Flood, or
(3). grew very rapidly in the midst of the raging Flood, or
(4). lived and died AFTER the Flood in normal non-Flood sedimentation.If you really want to cram all the Paleozoic and Mesozoic into the Flood, that means (1) and (4) are fairly small contributors to the fossil record. Limestone and dolomite are, in fact, quite rare in preCambrian sediments.You are left with having almost all limestone suspended in the pre-Flood water column, either as (2) living creatures, or else (3) as dissolved ions followed by some really incredible growth DURING the Flood.Option (2) fails for opacity, lack of surface area for bottom dwellers, lack of oxygen, food, and CO2 poisoning from the respiration of all those animals.
Option (3) fails for the obvious reason of insufficient light to support the required amount of growth in only one year, as well as insufficient solubility for Ca and Mg (cold water can't hold much dissolved ions), insufficient solubility for carbonate (hot water can't hold much dissolved CO2), the heat and CO2 generated by the reaction, etc.It's time to open your eyes, TC. The only options left that can explain the gelogic record are options (1) and (4) - normal sedimentary processes operating over very long time scales. The Flood must shrink into it's proper place with all the other myths - rising sea-levels from melting Ice Age glaciation left a profound impact on prehistoric cultures, which were undoudtedly mostly coastal and forced out of their prime ocean front real estate. Think about how tough it will be on your kids and grand-kids when most of Florida is under water. The survivors will not be all that welcome, I suspect, here in the hills of Virginia (no offense intended, just the harsh realities of global warming).Consider the real world and how poorly your myth explains its features. This paradigm shift must be even harder than replacing Santa Claus as the gift-giving mechanism is for little kids, but easier than the Tooth Fairy (that one always seemed a little strange... to me, anyway).I think you can do it, you're still young, still able to learn and expand your world-view.

^bump for TC... any response?

Thanks, TC.Been there, done that with the computer OS crashes...Biogenic or not, the precipitation of limestone still releases the same amount of heat and CO2 and still requires the same inputs of carbonate and calcium ions. Coragyps equations are valid either way, and eliminate the Flood as a scientific theory all by themselves. Did you notice how TB is violently avoiding the subject in other threads? He knows the chemistry of the limestone is a myth-killer.Anyway, only kooks like Walt Brown are willing to argue that the Dover Cliff chalks are inorganic. Really now, don't you think microscopic animal shells are good enough evidence of biogenesis? Same goes for the corals, crinoids, molluscs, etc. Many widespread layers of limestone are formed almost exclusively of crinoid fragments, for example. After metazoan life got the urge to calcify in the Cambrian, limestone is almost all biogenic. It's a simple, observable fact of the geologic record. Only by ignoring the details can professional Creationists like Hovind, Humphreys and Brown weave a plausible sounding pseudo-babble for their gullible flocks.