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Author
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Topic: The Academic Bill of Rights
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 61 of 178 (215846)
06-10-2005 10:11 AM
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In my course at a community college, when we get to the 18th century, I teach that those people known as the "founding fathers" of the USA were mostly Deists, not Christians. I also inform the students that the mass of people were, of course, not Deists, but Calvinists or some derivative thereof. Then we read the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin wherein Franklin spells out his Deistic beliefs, which were quite moderate but nonetheless Deistic. Then we read Thomas Paine, who was a radical Deist. I wonder if some student might be able to protest that I am teaching in a biased way. I am intimidating his religious beliefs by daring to suggest that if someone wants to argue that the "founding fathers" were mainly Christian they are wrong, and after all the student is entitled to his or her opinion and who do I think I am making such comments in an American Literature course? This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-10-2005 09:13 AM
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 10:14 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 62 of 178 (215847)
06-10-2005 10:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by robinrohan
06-10-2005 10:11 AM
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Curriculum is not a problem. It's the noncurriculum stuff that's the problem.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by robinrohan, posted 06-10-2005 10:11 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by nator, posted 06-10-2005 10:53 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: 07-23-2004
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Re: It is not a call for more government
Only those who recognize that there is a distinct leftist bias might see that there is also a problem. So, before responding any further: Do you recognize an overwhelming leftist bias on campus? No I do not! I had many professors that were very much classic conservitives. I would say it would about 60/40 in favor of the left but in no way "overwhelming leftist bias". It may have been different in a non technical field but that does not matter. You and Faith have yet to establish this with objective evidence. A list of incidents does not count. I am sorry if you somehow think that this should be somehow obvious but it simply is not. Law needs to be based on objectivly demonstrated need and not the political opinion of anyone. THAT IS a conservative value that I am SHOCKED so many would so readily abandon.
FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by dsv, posted 06-10-2005 10:54 AM | | Jazzns has not replied |
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: 07-23-2004
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Message 64 of 178 (215855)
06-10-2005 10:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
06-09-2005 8:09 PM
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Let me tell you what I would be doing. First lets assume that the problem does exist. Conservatives are wildly controlling higher education and failing liberal students based on bias etc. Notice that this is something that outrageous and still has yet to be shown. If I wanted to try to get legislation to fix this I would get together a group of concerned citizens like those who created the websites of the sources you quoted. But instead of just providing a list (and a paltry one at that) of incidents I would actually try very hard to get enough people together so we could fund a study and lobby our representatives IF that study came out the way we expected. If I couldn't or didn't want to solve the problem through legislation I would vigorously take my case to the existing channels with the support of my group. Assuming universities have a board of regents or something similar in this fictional universe, I would continue to make my case for university policies that enforce academic honesty and quality checks on the faculty. (something that already exists in the "real" universe at any university I have ever heard of) I would support the injection of arbitrary legislation by a radical politician even it if helped me with my cause. Regardless, freedom must be protected in this country even if it means having to take the harder path to illicit change.
FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 8:09 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 65 of 178 (215856)
06-10-2005 10:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
06-10-2005 10:14 AM
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quote:
Curriculum is not a problem. It's the noncurriculum stuff that's the problem.
Can you show me the language in the bill which protects curriculum from censorship and is restricted only to non-curricular statements?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 10:14 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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dsv
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 220 From: Secret Underground Hideout Joined: 08-17-2004
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Message 66 of 178 (215857)
06-10-2005 10:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Jazzns
06-10-2005 10:31 AM
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Re: It is not a call for more government
No I do not! I had many professors that were very much classic conservitives. I would say it would about 60/40 in favor of the left but in no way "overwhelming leftist bias". I think if you include the schools that are admittedly conservative and religious that ratio would move to their favor.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Jazzns, posted 06-10-2005 10:31 AM | | Jazzns has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 67 of 178 (215860)
06-10-2005 11:05 AM
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here is what the AAUP thinks about the bill
link to essay An excerpt:
Skepticism of professional knowledge, such as that which underlies the Academic Bill of Rights, is deep and corrosive. This is well illustrated by its requirement that "academic institutions . . . maintain a posture of organizational neutrality with respect to the substantive disagreements that divide researchers on questions within . . . their fields of inquiry."7 The implications of this requirement are truly breathtaking. Academic institutions, from faculty in departments to research institutes, perform their work precisely by making judgments of quality, which necessarily require them to intervene in academic controversies. Only by making such judgments of quality can academic institutions separate serious work from mere opinion, responsible scholarship from mere polemic. Because the advancement of knowledge depends upon the capacity to make judgments of quality, the Academic Bill of Rights would prevent colleges and universities from achieving their most fundamental mission. When carefully analyzed, therefore, the Academic Bill of Rights undermines the very academic freedom it claims to support. It threatens to impose administrative and legislative oversight on the professional judgment of faculty, to deprive professors of the authority necessary for teaching, and to prohibit academic institutions from making the decisions that are necessary for the advancement of knowledge. For these reasons Committee A strongly condemns efforts to enact the Academic Bill of Rights.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 68 of 178 (215861)
06-10-2005 11:05 AM
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"Significant Scholarly Perspectives" -SAF answers evo/holo/deism
I got this answer from Sara Dogan of Students for Academic Freedom in response to my second email concerning this topic, this time asking about evolution.
We've heard this objection again and again and always our response to it has been that the academic bill of rights would require professors to teach a "spectrum of significant scholarly perspectives" in the classroom. Since Creationism is a doctrine based on faith and not scholarship, it would not be considered a scholarly perspective and would not have to be taught in science class. The same argument works for those who say the ABOR would require professors to teach that possibly the Holocaust didn't exist---this is an unscholarly fringe perspective and not a "significant scholarly view." Hope that helps, Sara Sara Dogan National Campus Director Students for Academic Freedom 1411 K Street, NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20005 202-393-0123 Sara@studentsforacademicfreedom.org Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied This should also apply to the question about the Deism of the American Founders. "Spectrum of significant scholarly perspectives" ought to cover it. I will probably be gone for most of the day. I hope Canadian Steve shows up and has some good answers. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-10-2005 11:06 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 06-10-2005 07:10 PM
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 69 of 178 (215862)
06-10-2005 11:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
06-10-2005 11:05 AM
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Re: "Significant Scholarly Perspectives"
Sounds good.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 11:05 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: 07-23-2004
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Message 70 of 178 (215863)
06-10-2005 11:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
06-09-2005 3:29 PM
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Conclusion: not good enough
I spent some time at: Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied All I found was this: Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied Like I thought, a laundry list of complaints. What I didn't expect was that it would be so short! Why was this hard to present in this forum? Even a better link would have sufficed like the one I gave above. It seems like you couldn't post the evidence because really....there actually is none. At that page there is nothing but a list of allegations. No evidence of any effort to follow up the complaints which is further shown by the 2 examples that have been discredited by the research of members of this forum. On top of that, many of the incidents had nothing to do with classroom activities but rather university policy. No indication of just how broad the "bias" of liberal professors is. If this is the evidence that you feel requires immediate legislative action then it is severely lacking. That Horowitz would actually quote a site of such poor scholarship in his support of the ABoE is appalling. I am convinced more than ever that this is an ideological tactic that should be crushed in any legislature. I plan on contacting my local representatives and the local branch of the ACLU to make sure that they know about this and are ready to take action if this type of sloppy legislation ever gets passed in my state. This is NOT about academic freedom. Academic freedom already exists. This is about a minority of extreme conservatives who feel the need to directly attack freedom in order to stifle liberalism. This is the action of people who would pay any price, including giving up freedom, to succeed in a perceived war of political opinion. I thought that I might ask for a better source but since this is the same source that Horowitz is touting it really is embarrassing for anyone who supports this anti-American, foul piece of legislation.
FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 3:29 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 11:12 AM | | Jazzns has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 71 of 178 (215864)
06-10-2005 11:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 67 by nator
06-10-2005 11:05 AM
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Re: here is what the AAUP thinks about the bill
Paranoid nonsense. Read the document.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by nator, posted 06-10-2005 11:05 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 73 by nator, posted 06-10-2005 11:14 AM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 72 of 178 (215865)
06-10-2005 11:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Jazzns
06-10-2005 11:08 AM
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Some evidence hound you are!
That's ONE MONTH'S WORTH OF COMPLAINTS, between April 20 and May 27 this year, not the whole range of complaints over the last few years that are being addressed. IN fact, that one month tally ought to hint that there is a substantial problem to be addressed overall. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-10-2005 11:13 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Jazzns, posted 06-10-2005 11:08 AM | | Jazzns has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 73 of 178 (215866)
06-10-2005 11:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
06-10-2005 11:09 AM
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Re: here is what the AAUP thinks about the bill
Faith, you couldn't have possibly read the entire AAUP essay explaining why they believe the ABOR is a bad idea since I only posed the link a minute ago. Maybe, since they are university professors, they have a perspective and legitimate points regarding this bill that you haven't thought of, since you are not a university professor. Perhaps you should read and attempt to honestly undestand that perspective before you arrogantly dismiss it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 11:09 AM | | Faith has replied |
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: 07-23-2004
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Message 74 of 178 (215868)
06-10-2005 11:20 AM
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A cool debate on the issue: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06/1421208
It is simply that we have allowed over time for leftists to become centered at our campuses, and we have lost the diversity of ideology in the campus environment that we always strove for historically. My effort is simply to bring universities to the table, give them a guidance piece in legislation. Time to grab the pitchforks conservative Floridians!
First of all, it specifies that faculty may not introduce controversial subjects when they're inappropriate, but it provides no mechanism or means for determining who gets to say what is controversial. Somebody, evidently, will have the right to tell us what we cannot say in our classroom, and that strikes at the very root of academic freedom. Funny how they always name bills that restrict freedom in ways that make it sound like they are adding freedom.
I merely illustrated that I went on an anthropology class as a student and was dogmatically told that evolution is a fact. There's no missing link. Insight into the level of education of the people supporting this bill.
And I would agree with Representative Baxley that the kinds of things that he describes are inappropriate, if and when they do occur, and indeed, given human fallibility, they do occur from time to time. On the other hand, I think in many respects, this bill is a solution in search of a problem, because we don't have serious widespread complaints from students, and we do have grievance mechanisms already in place to deal with those concerns. Couldn't have said it better myself!
FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: 07-23-2004
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Message 75 of 178 (215872)
06-10-2005 11:29 AM
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Do something about it
If there are any board members of lurkers who have been motivated like me to do something about this attack on freedom, you can help by supporting the American Association of University Professors at: AAUP Compare them to: Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied for yourself and decide which group has better scholarship and logic on their side. While our public school are being attacked in Kansas and Dover our universities are being undermined by people with an extremist agenda. Those of your who are involved in this debate to help protect primary education also should be concerned about this blatant assault on higher learning and the educations we have recieved for which we place so much value. Send emails and letters to representative. Give monetary support to these orginizations already entrenched in the battle for our freedom. Get involved in your government and make a change! Empower yourself and take responsibility for the direction of our beloved country goes! Let all protected education! Now not just for our children but for us! This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-10-2005 09:30 AM
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 6:50 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
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