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Author | Topic: Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
It is what CAIR means, no matter how carefully they skate around the issue. and your evidence of this is? *not an actual doctor
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Welcome Canadian Steve. How refreshing to have someone at least partially on my side in this.
I'm aware there are some democratically minded Muslim groups, which I've acknowledged with my reference to moderate Muslims, but I'm also aware that Islam itself contains the directives for violent jihad against the "infidel" for anyone who takes it at that level, and there are no guarantees that anyone is *not* going to take it at that level since it's there to be so taken. You posted the same link I posted by the way. It's a good link, probably the most thorough on the web, but despite its thorough documentation I see it's been treated as mere trash by at least one expert here.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I will again point out that your response was devoid of any substance. You are correct about the wacko part, though -- I apologize. Let me rephrase my question: why should I believe a minority opinion whose facts and expertise are disputed over the majority opinion of people who are more directly involved in studying these issues? Where are you getting the minority/majority idea? And who is it that is "disputing their facts and expertise" and why take THEM seriously?The people you called wackos -- thank you for the apology -- are experts on Islam, who are in fact "directly involved in studying these issues" as you put it, scholars who are well known for their work. They give many checkable facts. To dismiss them so abruptly doesn't say a lot for your interest in discovering the truth of the situation.
At any rate, let's try to get back on topic. The question is whether a Muslim should be elected president of the US. You, I think, have admitted that there are moderate Muslims. Would you be against a moderate Muslim as president? Why? Second, why do you think that a Muslim president would be able to even contemplate imposing her Muslim beliefs on the government, seeing how a majority of Congress are avowed Christians, the courts have consistently backed the separation of church and state? Further, what powers does the federal government have to enforce such religious laws? I would expect a coup, an overthrow, and I would expect it to start with the revisionist work of the Supreme Court that is capable of changing our laws overnight without recourse to the legislature or the will of the people in any form. {EDIT: I'm sure we aren't yet at the point where this is possible but with the reign of politically correct sympathy for Islam, the general inability to see through the machinations of a group like CAIR, the hatred of our Christian roots, and other forms of ignorance of our true situation, I can easily see it coming in the not too distant future. {EDIT: The separation of church and state is rigorously enforced (and UnConstitutionally I believe) specifically against Christianity. That feeds Islam. A TRULY moderate Muslim who TRULY respected the institutions of America, no problem. I simply have my doubts that there are many of these, and those who exist find themselves threatened into silence by the violent jihadists, the Wahabbis, threats of violent reprisals for what is considered their abdication of the truths of Islam.
Finally, let me make up a fantasy scenario: suppose that in the next election the Republican candidate was a Muslim. Suppose she fully supported free-market enterprise, she was in favor of a strong and vigorous military defence, even favoring unilateral action over the objections of the UN and the European allies if necessary. Suppose that she was committed to national security, even to the point of supporting Israel, and advocating a harsh line against Iran and Syria and whoever the current Mideast bete noir is. Suppose that she was against abortion, for abstenance education, and was in favor of promoting Judeo-Christian-Islamic values. Suppose, basically, that she was pretty much George Bush, but worships in a mosque instead of a church. Suppose that the democratic candidate was a Christian, a practicing Baptist, like Bill Clinton. Who would you vote for? Assuming things exactly as you present them, with no subterfuge involved, fantasy though it be, the Muslim of course. See above. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-06-2005 06:20 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 06-06-2005 06:29 PM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I simply have my doubts that there are many of these, and those who exist find themselves threatened into silence by the violent jihadists, the Wahabbis, threats of violent reprisals for what is considered their abdication of the truths of Islam. Just a hint to help you find them - all those people who, when you find out they're Muslims, you're a little surprised because you had no idea? They're the moderates. Every Muslim I've ever known has been a moderate. That's a lot of Muslims. I've never met a Muslim fundamentalist. (Probably not too many in Minnesota or Missouri.)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
CAIR people pose as moderates too, how would you know?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So do nutcases like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the wackos in Colorado Springs.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The difference is that they don't follow a religion that preaches killing infidels such as yourself.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Actually, and maybe Andya will correct me if I'm wrong, infidel is the general translation of kafir which is Arabic for denier.
Kafir does NOT include Christians or Jews. The term for them is Ahl-al-Kitab, People of the book. Before you say it, no...militant Islamics wouldn't necessarily make this distinction. You, however, did not make any distinction between militant Islamics and the general populace that follows the religion of Islam. Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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docpotato Member (Idle past 5077 days) Posts: 334 From: Portland, OR Joined: |
Faith writes: Sure, it is possible to get a Muslim president who serves the Constitution fairly, either from a less zealous religious spirit or from a pragmatic attitude, but Islam itself promotes a strong sense of allegiance to Islam that refuses allegiance to any nation. Faith writes: There are times, I must say, when I feel like saying, "Bring it on, Lord, I'm sick of this nation that hates You and Your law. I'd rather have my head sawn off than see it go on another day." But guess what, unlike me God is merciful to all you ingrates and continues to give you time to repent. I wouldn't rather have my head sawn off than see this nation go on another day, so could you ask your God to put it off about 100 more years no matter how depraved and anti-God the U.S. of A gets? Or do you feel more of an allegience to your God than your country?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well Faith, so far you have not shown any evidence that Islam wants to kill Infidels like me or that I would even be considered as an Infidel.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I wouldn't rather have my head sawn off than see this nation go on another day, so could you ask your God to put it off about 100 more years no matter how depraved and anti-God the U.S. of A gets? Or do you feel more of an allegience to your God than your country? Allegiance to my God REQUIRES me to have allegiance to my country, unlike allegiance to Allah.
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gnojek Inactive Member |
jar writes:
So do nutcases like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the wackos in Colorado Springs.Faith writes:
Were you watching Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer when Jerry Falwell was on there with Jesse Jackson. The difference is that they don't follow a religion that preaches killing infidels such as yourself. Falwell said that we should "Blow them away in the name of the Lord."Maybe he didn't mean infidels, but I'm not exactly sure what he meant. I can't find the transcript, but here is someone laughing at it:Atheism and Agnosticism I'm sure the 9/11 terrorists wanted to "blow them away in the name of the Lord."
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gnojek Inactive Member |
If you aren't Muslim, you are an infidel.
Like if you are not Jewish, you are a gentile. But Infidel is more general I think, not specific to Islam. Anyway, to a Muslim, you are an infidel.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Which I admit was uncalled for, and for which I have already apologized. -
quote: From the fact that we learned a little about Islam when I was in school, in magazine articles written both by Muslims and about Muslims by non-Muslims, in books I've read that spoke of Islam, by speaking with several actual Muslims that I knew, from living for three years in country that was divided half Christian and half Muslim. In all this time I have never read or heard anyone say how Islam was bent on world domination, or how it is Islamic to kill unbelievers. The few, very few, articles that I read warning about the "grave threat posed by Islam" have been editorials -- opinion articles, written by pundits whose job it is to express their own opinions on a very wide range of topics. Even if I am wrong, I think it is very understandable that, considering the very, very few articles I have seen expressing fear of Islam, this appears to be a minority opinion. That is why I am asking you (for the third time, I believe) whether you can substantiate your claims that Islam in general (as opposed to a fringe minority of fanatics) is a force to be feared. More to the point, I really would like some sort of substantiation why, regardless of what "official Islam" says, why I should distrust and disbelieve all the Muslims I have known, lived with, and worked with when they all expressed good will and tolerance for everyone. -
quote: A coup? We're speaking of an election, just like any other election, except that one of the candidates is a Muslim. --
quote: Wow, I admit that this was unexpected. That speaks poorly of me, I guess. Now, again, why do you think that these people are in a minority? Do you have any evidence that substantates that these people are in a minority? Especially among American and European Muslims.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
gnojek,
Did you see my msg #83 concerning the meaning of infidel/kafir as opposed to ahl al Kitb/people of the book? Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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