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Author | Topic: Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Yes, and the Good Christians of Europe at this time went to war with the Albigensians in Southern France, wiping them out mercilessly. The engaged in wars of conquest and forcible conversions in northeast Europe. The Iberian Peninsula was reconquered, by war, by Ferdinand and Isabella, who then did what the Muslims never did at this time: the expelled all the Muslims and Jews who did not convert to Christianity and tortured former Muslims and Jews whom they so much as suspected of faking their conversions to Christianty.
So what is your point again?
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Okay, now your paranoid delusions are becoming clearer. At any rate, if many well-known Muslim moderates are warning about the Wahabbis, then what is the problem exactly? Remember, the question is whether any Muslim should be a priori judged to be a dangerous extremist.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yup. It was a dynamic period which many people tend to forget. Lots of things were changing.
I'm afraid we might get way too far OT going down this road but would love to see a discussion on the period and the changing dynamics, the beginnings of the concept of Nation and the history of the area. Start a thread on it if you too think it would be interesting. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I simply have my doubts that there are many of these, and those who exist find themselves threatened into silence by the violent jihadists, the Wahabbis, threats of violent reprisals for what is considered their abdication of the truths of Islam. I'll put my lot in with crash. I can personally testify to hundreds of Moslems who are some of the most peace loving and religious people I know. As much if not moreso than most Brothers and Sisters in Christ whom I know. None are being "silenced by the violent jihadists" either. I would hate for this to decend into the madness that was the last thread on Islam but I cannot leave a falshood like this uncontested. FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
Forgot to address your other points. I'll do that now:
You wrote: "I don't understand your point. The shah was a known evil that needed to be dealt with -- the fundamentalists were the only ones in any position to be effective in this regard." Read Amir Taheri, the famed Iranian journalist on this. It was through him that I learned about a coalition that brought the Shah down, rather than the Islamists alone. "At any rate, the majority of Iranians, who are still Muslims, support the more democratically minded reformers. That would seem to dispute your point."First, of ocurse some pockets of Muslims are more democratically minded than others. It is instructive, though, that Iranians are not arabs, and that iranians ahve experienced first hand the horror of Islamism. Thus they see what others have not. Second, I do not argue that the majority of Muslims would reject democracy. I assuredly took took note of the Iraqi election. Rather, I am saying that North American Muslims, even those who are democrats, have demonstrated a greater sympathy for Islamists than liberal democracy, by allowing Wahabbis to takeover their organizations. That, frankly, is ominous. You wrote: "The conservatives who are in charge of Iran are not Wahhabis. In fact, they are very critical of the Wahhabis, considering them to be a medievel throwback (kind of funny, eh?). The conservatives in Iran are slightly more tolerant of religious dissent and Iranian women have more rights in Iran than in, say, Wahabbi dominated Saudi Arabia." True, they are not (Sunni) wahabbis. They are, instead, Shiite equivalents. Both are Islamist. Both quote the war verses. Both see democracy as evil. Both believe in sharia Law, adn that all the world should be ruled by it under an Islamic caliphate. "Jerry Fallwell made some bizarre comments linking homosexuals, feminists, and, I believe, the ACLU with the 9/11 attacks. This was publically caught, too. I don't recall that he ever made a definite apology for this, and I believe that he still has his job." Jerry Falwaell was in charge of his own creation, and it and he took a major hit as his credibility was destroyed. But you say something significant: he "made some bizarre comemnts." Exactly, they were seen as bizarre. This imam's comments were not at all seen as bizarre by the congregants - because he was merely repeating what they have heard since they were children, and was is right there in the Koran. -- I wote: If we are to defend ourselves, we must realize that the tolerance and "liberal" part of democracy is not, to paraphrase someone else, a suicide pact. You responded: "Nor is posing a false dilemma a sign of logical thinking."True, but this is not a false dilemma. 9/11 was real. That the Islamists had Afghanistan, and still have Iran and Sudan - where they have committed a gemocide against Christians and now moderate Black Muslims - is real. That the Islamists had their finger on the Pakastan nuclear trigger, un til Khan was fired after US pressure following 9/11 - is real. That they are close to getting more nuclear weapons is real. That they despise the US and liberal democracy is real. That they have taken over American Islamic organizations is real. And so on. The war in Iraq has brought about significant losses for them. Democracy has been introduced into the heart of their world. Arab intellectuals are discussing democracy even in repressive countries like Egypt and Syria. we don't know yet the ultimate outcomes. we do know that Islamism was gaining steam fast, was probably going to conquer most of the Arab world and much of the islamic world, and then was going to come after us in an annihilist nuclear war. it was the Nazis of the early 30's. This time a western leader, Bush, recognized what was happening and intervened sooner. (Churchill warned us all about the Nazis, but was dismissed with the same kind of arguments the left has used to dismiss Bush). ironically, it appears we need a democratic revolution in the ME in order to assure that NA Muslims will push out the non democratic forces within their communities and reaffirm their commitment to our societies as they are.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Actually, mainstream Islam tends to consider Christians their misguided brothers of the faith. I guess technically we would be considered Infidels but in the, "at least they believe in the same God, too bad about that divinity of Jesus thing" kind of way.
Allah = The God I am sure someone may be hatefull enough to dispute but it really dosen't matter. No one that matters cares about the opinions of biggots anyway. FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
Two points:
1) The Crusades were not Christian aggression. 2) There is nothing in the New Testament that justifies war and violence. In contrast, gthere is a whol;e section of the koran, The War Verses, that is a call to Muslims to conquer, subjugate and convert all the world. And worse, there is Sharia Law, Allah's Law, that all the world is to abide and be ruled under.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
1) The Crusades were not Christian aggression. Beg pardon? Can you provide supporting evidence? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Moselms believe that Jesus is coming in the end to judge and save believers. Jesus is their savior too!
FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
May I suggest you check out this site:
Campus Watch Yes, a few moderates warn...about that the majority of muslims are acquiescing to Wahabbi takeover. Would you not consider it ominous if the majority of American Christian congregations and organzations were taken over by Nazis dedicated to our destruction...without a fight?
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
About Islamic (Wahabbi) leaders and profs arrested:
Welcome to the Islamic Resistance Movement -aka HAMAS aka IAP aka CAIR - Militant Islam Monitor - Militant Islam Monitor Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz Netwmd.com is for sale | HugeDomains Two years ago I might have reacted to this info as do you. But the more I read, from creditable sources, the more I realized what we are dealing with. But the biggest shock of all came from reading the Koran's war verses. Read them: at first you'll think you've been slipped something else as a joke.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Would you not consider it ominous if the majority of American Christian congregations and organzations were taken over by Nazis dedicated to our destruction...without a fight? Getting way OT but you are still asserting absurdities. The Nazis were NOT anti-Christian.
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922 Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Yes, I've read about Campus Watch.
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quote: Must be very few, since I don't seem to come across them much.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I've read the Koran twice, all the way through.
Have you ever read those "war verses" in context?
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aurelius Inactive Member |
quote: This was what I was replying to. Here's a question; is there a statute of limitations on history? We can cite the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the battle of Tours, the Battle of Yarmuk, all the way back to Thermopylae or Zoroastrianism and what does it mean? Does something that happened in 732 or 1492 justify anything one side does in response to it? How about 1742? 1979? 9/11? I love obscure references as much as the next person (probably more, to tell the truth), but I have to tell you, dying for history is plain stupid.
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