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Author | Topic: Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
EZscience Member (Idle past 5176 days) Posts: 961 From: A wheatfield in Kansas Joined: |
Faith writes: Yes, the starting point is to correct the bias that has led to the preponderance of liberal professors, a preponderance which demonstrates bias in hiring and tenure This is a total crock, as Chiroptera has clearly explained above. Do you know anything about what it takes to get a faculty position at a major university? How many educated people have to come to a consensus of opinion before you get offered a position? I interviewed for 6 or 7 different faculty positions before I got hired, and I can tell you for a fact that the process has *nothing* to do with politics. In fact, when you serve on hiring committees, you learn that any questions about political affiliations (or about religion, family status, or sexual orientation) are all strictly off limits. You are not allowed by law to ask such questions. But you would change that just to ensure that some underqualified conservatives get faculty positions they don't academically deserve? And just to correct this 'perceived bias' that has apparently evolved because the most educated individuals quickly see through the lies and hypocricies of the neo-con dogma. If there is a preponderance of liberals in academia, they got there on their own merits. So the question is not why academia is biased (it isn't), but rather why conservatives either eschew higher education for business, or are apparently failing miserably in fair and open competition for faculty spots.
Faith writes: ...keeping irrelevant political and religious topics out of the classroom You mean like preventing ID from being labelled 'science' ?
Faith writes: At the moment it's the conservative and religious students who are being intimidated Intimidated? How so? Have you ever been to a university? In any debate setting, students are encouraged to take positions of their choice and defend them. That's part of the learning process. No one is ever 'intimidated' from expressing an opinion. That's crap. Good professors always welcome expression of opposing opinions because that is what is needed to stir up debate and make students think. There is no 'conspiracy of indoctrination' - the very idea is preposterous. The underlying premise of all higher education is that we teach the process of reasoning and creative thought, regardless of discipline.
Faith writes: ...direct intimidation of students by unfair grading based on their political and religious views rather than the course material itself. I suggest if there were any basis at all to such allegations we would see some high profile law suits in progress (especially given the litigious nature of wealthy conservatives). We don't. It's simply not true.
Faith writes: How about a whole semester's worth of anti-Dubya rants and a punitive refusal to tolerate another point of view? Yes this happens. Two points raised. The first could be considered within the rights of a political science professor (and I, for one would empathize), but the second is something else entirely. If any professor was truly 'punitive' and 'refused to tolerate' students because of their political convictions, that would be grounds for a disciplinary hearing under policies already in place in most colleges. Again, I submit that no such allegations have yet had enough legs to warrant such a hearing. And disclipinary actions have been taken against extremist faculty who have suggested 911 was justified, or who have tried to deny the holocaust and such, so it does happen.
Faith writes: ...the power to ridicule the views of a student and grade him on his opinions instead of his knowledge of the course material? This is what is happening now. More of the same. Where is the evidence for all these injustices? Where are all these poor, ridiculed and unfairly graded students? I suggest they don't have a case or they would have made it in court by now.
Faith writes: ...liberal refusal or inability to respect views contrary to their own. I'm sorry. You are contradicting the very definition of the word 'liberal' here. You would have us believe you neo-cons are more respecting of views contrary to your own than we are? You people keep throwing the term 'liberal' around as if it was some kind of dirty word. You need to go back to the dictionary and read what being 'liberal' really means . from Websters Unabridged: liberal: ...favorable to progress or reform... ...favorable or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection.. ...favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief... ...free from prejudice and bigotry; tolerant ...open-minded... ...characterized by generosity... So I ask you, if right-wing Republicans are anti-liberal, then just what sort of 'freedom' is it that they are trying to export to the rest of the world and force down other country's throats whether they want it or not?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I guess I don't understand why there is a problem. If there is such a pervasive liberal bias, then it shouldn't be so hard to demonstrate it. Yet, all I ever see are a few isolated incidents that are somehow indicative of a serious problem. Where are you looking for your information? I bet that's a clue here. But again, I'll try to track it down later. I know it's going to take some work because this issue gets discussed all over the place instead of collected in one.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are speaking completely from your own bias instead of trying to discover the valid information that has led to the Bill of Rights.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Maybe it's your sources of information that are misleading and inaccurate. Ever think of that?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'll try to find a discussion of this fear of lawsuits too, but if I can't it may be worthwhile discussing it with David Horowitz. I may write him about it.
If profs just do their jobs and stop trying to indoctrinate their students in irrelevant opinions why should there be a problem for heaven's sake? You all sure do sound like you don't want to give up your right to tyrannize students. If I can't find any information on it, I may also write him about the questions concerning evolutionism in the classroom. I'm not aware that it's come up and don't see why it should be a problem, but the paranoia about such things is so thick I guess I need to investigate the possibility. Interestingly liberals aren't interested in discussing anything with David Horowitz, they just throw pies at him and engage in other forms of suppressive, violent and abusive treatment. Such respect for diversity of opinion!! Such concern for rights and freedoms from the self-styled liberal faction!!
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Here is an interesting opinion written by a conservative during the McCarthy period:
For William F. Buckley Jr., author of the 1951 polemic God and Man at Yale: The Superstitions of "Academic Freedom" and a founder of modern American conservatism, the solution to this scandal was straightforward: Fire the wanton professors. No freedom would be abridged. The socialist professor could "seek employment at a college that was interested in propagating socialism." None around? No problem. The market has spoken. The good professor can retool or move on.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are not allowed by law to ask such questions. But you would change that just to ensure that some underqualified conservatives get faculty positions they don't academically deserve? HOROWITZ certainly knows what goes on in the hiring process whether I do or not. And his aim is to STOP THE POLITICAL BIAS and ESTABLISH purely academic standards instead of your false idea that he would change that????? So you didn't encounter it. Great. Some do. That's the point. This message has been edited by Faith, 06-08-2005 02:27 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 06-08-2005 02:28 PM
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
No, the point is whether some do in great numbers, whether the internal review policies of the universities are adequate to handle these cases when they arise, and whether legislation is the appropriate remedy.
By the way, why are you so certain that Horowitz knows so much about this?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Horowitz's aim is to stop bias on all sides. Times do change. One kind of bias is no better than another.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
By the way, why are you so certain that Horowitz knows so much about this? Because I read most of his stuff.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Do you have an example where Horowitz is or has acted as strongly against conservative bias as he has in his examples of liberal bias?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can find many examples of where he has strongly spoken against the idea, and shown how his bill of rights prevents conservative abuses too, but the fact is there ISN'T any conservative bias in universities at the moment.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3933 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
You are speaking completely from your own bias instead of trying to discover the valid information that has led to the Bill of Rights. No. I am asking you a question. Combined with that question was my opinion of the situation. I'll rephrase the question for clarification. What reason would there be for a die hard conservative to take a socialist stance on the issue of higher education? I'll also rephrase my stance. The only viable reason that a conservative would go directly against his/her political philosophy would be due to a greater allegiance to some other factor such as personal religious beliefs. Why else? What would be a reason that a conservative would go against conservative principles that I am missing? FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3933 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Interestingly liberals aren't interested in discussing anything with David Horowitz, they just throw pies at him and engage in other forms of suppressive, violent and abusive treatment. Such respect for diversity of opinion!! Such concern for rights and freedoms from the self-styled liberal faction!! Let me tell you about a bunch of other people that liberals dont or should not discuss policy with. The KKKNeo Nazis (insert radical exclusionary group here) There IS one major thing that liberals are intolerant of..... ....intolerance. Unfortunatly, more and more of our elected leaders are falling into this category. Why the hell should we respect the opinion of people with a discriminative agenda? And I know you have your canned speach about how the liberal definition of tolerance is nothing like the "real tolerance" that only you and the people who agree with you seem to be able to understand. The point is, not every opinion is worth giving credence to. This include ones that are identifiably unconstutional or previously demonstrated to be false such as YECism. FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX. -- Lewis Black, The Daily Show
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EZscience Member (Idle past 5176 days) Posts: 961 From: A wheatfield in Kansas Joined: |
Faith writes: HOROWITZ certainly knows what goes on in the hiring process whether I do or not. No he doesn't - he's just as clueless as you are. He's never been hired at any university. He doesn't even have a Ph.D ! You can find out more about this demented bigot and his 'career'
here along with links to many exposees on his various deluded projects.
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