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Author Topic:   Should we let Bill Frist & Co. change the rules of the senate ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 209 of 256 (212570)
05-30-2005 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Rrhain
05-30-2005 4:06 AM


Rrhains good answer
Rrhain, I am surprised! This actually was quite a good answer coming from you! You did not even *blink* and you gave me cause to think.
Do you not understand that by protecting the minority, you are protecting yourself?
Maybe I've been listening to James Dobson and the ACLJ too much lately. I hear them every morning on the radio and they make it seem so right....until the agenda is exposed for what it is.
Seculow does seem to make a lot of sense, however. The jury is still out on his sanity.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 212 of 256 (212578)
05-30-2005 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by crashfrog
05-30-2005 12:13 AM


Yeah...I'm just stirring up the pot a bit. I actually don't have any argument worthy to challenge the pluralistic one that you guys are espousing.
It will be interesting to see how Americas image is seen by the rest of the world should we swing ideologically to the left again. It seems that whenever America has recently been moderate to left, the world takes advantage of our niceness and largesse.
1) Jimmy Carter...nice guy, terrible economy.
2) Bill Clinton...smart guy, so so foreign policy.
3) J.F.K. (hey, one out of three ain't bad!)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 213 of 256 (212579)
05-30-2005 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Silent H
05-30-2005 5:51 AM


Re: Rrhains good answer..*chuckle*
holmes writes:
Evangelists particularly seem to fail on issues of pride, idolatry, and taking the lord's name in vain... and maybe false testimony too.
Yeah...I've often wondered if there is any way that American law and policy could ever really and truly be Christian based. Jesus did point out, as Rrhain emphasized, that we are to render to Caesar only what Caesar is responsible for.
Wealthy, Christian Americans are truly afraid to give up the overwhelming advantage in material goods that God has blessed them with. Could it be that the only reason that this nation ever was blessed is so that we would give it to the poor masses of this world?
If so, we as a "Christian" nation are failing miserably.
Even if you take the "Christian" out of the equation, it may well be that America is faced with the choice to let go of the wealth in order to get along with the world or to be yet another Empire that is bent on maintaining control of the resources of this planet.
holmes writes:
I was listening to Robertson and Seculow almost daily before there was an ACLJ and as they created that organization. Remain very skeptical and always ask if what they are doing is defending some individuals right to not be interfered with, or an overt right to interfere with the lives of others.
You are an enigma, Holmes! I never would have pictured you as listening to those guys! When you really befuddle me is when you go off on those rants where you defend youth exposure to sexuality as not harmful in the long run to those youth! Sometimes you have a lawyer side to your arguments that seems to come out of nowhere!
I would have to research your posts to actually respond to this in any way, however>>> Sometimes you seem so liberal and sometimes so conservative!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-30-2005 04:03 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 230 of 256 (212785)
05-31-2005 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Rrhain
05-31-2005 3:45 AM


Rrhain writes:
Why does it matter? The mere recognition of the existence of a god is necessarily a religious act.
If that is all that is being demanded...that no mention of any type of God be allowed in public...than I am against your "freedom from religion". It is as equally offensive to me for belief to be exorcised from public life as it is for you to have to tolerate it.
I'll admit that were it Hinduism, I would feel differently.
Its like how unfair it is for a restaurant to spend tens of thousands of dollars to make a wheelchair ramp so ONE guy in town can get to the bathroom. Majority should rule.
Of course, I can also see your side of the argument. Its just that it scares me to have a non theistic government. Were you a believer, you would know what I mean.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 236 of 256 (212835)
05-31-2005 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by crashfrog
05-31-2005 8:16 AM


A couple of other examples...
Here are two other newsworthy stories along the same lines as what we are discussing:
National Alliance writes:
No Religious Book Reports
"Pen and paper weren't enough for 11-year-old Elizabeth Johnson to do her book report. She needed a lawyer. Sixth-grade teachers at Peak to Peak Charter School initially rejected Elizabeth's choice of the biblical Book of Exodus for her report.
The Boulder Valley School District (Colorado) changed its stance after an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, which specializes in religious-freedom issues, threatened to bring a civil rights suit.
Robert Corry, the Denver-based attorney
who represented Elizabeth, said schools can't discriminate against religious statements if they make an assignment involving expression. 'They have to treat religious speech the same way as every other kind of speech,' Corry said.
Teachers said that the Bible might offend other students of different religions. The
girl was also told not to bring her Bible to school." (Rocky Mountain News. 12/13/02.)
The issue, as I see it, is that if a school can allow certain types of beliefs(be they religious or non-religious) to be brought forth means that a school cannot discriminate against MY beliefs.
Libraries & Religious Rights
"A Florida city has agreed to allow free use of a community meeting room for a discussion on America's Christian heritage. Twice last year, Liberty Counsel, a Christian legal defense organization, applied for permission to use the community room in the Dunedin Public Library for the presentation, but was told the presentation could not be held because of its religious nature. A federal lawsuit was filed and, as Liberty Counsel president Mat Staver explains, the lawsuit has now been settled.
'The city attorney stated (originally) that the city strongly believes in the separation of church and state and operates its facilities accordingly,' Staver says. 'Well obviously, after reading the lawsuit, he changed his mind-and now the library has settled the case. The library settlement results in the repeat of the policy, and now Liberty Counsel will be able to use the facilities.' Staver says many cities nationwide have similar unconstitutional policies. The settlement in Dunedin, he says, sends a strong message. 'People of faith can't be treated as second-class citizens,' the attorney says. 'You can't discriminate against people's viewpoints solely because of its Christian character or nature. Any public facility open to the community for various kinds of discussion or meetings cannot slam the door on people of faith. The First Amendment was primarily designed to protect freedom of religion.'" (Agape Press. 3/18/03.)
Notice how the threat of a lawsuit causes the library to back down? That is because that after reviewing the evidence, they knew that they were in the wrong!
What you guys do not see is that I have had to sit through assemblies about Buddism or Hinduism under the guise of "cultural education" and then heard that Christian expressions were banned due to endorsement of religion. You can't call one "cultural" and call another "religious"!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-31-2005 11:16 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 237 of 256 (212840)
05-31-2005 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Silent H
05-31-2005 12:21 PM


Re: For those looking at theocracy driven by Judges...
The point is that the government is never neutral about religion. They are either overly FOR it, (which does not bother me) or they are attempting to be against free expression of it.
Philosophically, a gvernment is never neutral on any governing belief. They either hold one truth or another to be self evident.

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