Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt

I agree.RM

The number involved is based solely on the evidence.Funny how you are against reinterpretation here but your tune changes when 1Kings 6:1 is the issue ?RM

Unsupported assertion contrary to the evidence.If this is an indication as to how this topic will proceed then it will be a long frustrating one.RM

Exodus 12:37RM

Velikovsky, Ages in Chaos, pages 164, 165 [1952]: "Cut into the outside of the southern wall at the Karnak Temple is a hieroglyphic name which reads "Sosenk", and this king of the Libyan Dynasty inscribed the names of cities subject to him.

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"The relief has 155 names of cities" [Jirku, Die agyptischen Listen, Klio Beihefte, XXXVIII (1937)] "Only 17 can be located with certainty, and 2 more with probability. 14 of these belong to Israel; they are mostly unimportant towns while the remaining 5 in Judah are, with one exception, obscure villages" [Breasted, Records, Vol.IV, Sec.711.]"Ray Martinez: Here we have inscriptions testifying to non-existent cities and locales.Maybe more have been identified today.But the point is, are the cities myths because they have not been identified ?Is the alleged lack of archaeological remains of Hebrews in Egypt make the book of Exodus a myth ?I believe I have made my point for now.Ray Martinez

Where did the 4 million figure suddenly come from ?I already agreed to "2-3 million".The evidence of the Bible directly implies 70 persons multiplied into 600,000 men able for war. Add women and children - 2 to 3 million is quite reasonable.RM

Hydarnes, writes:http://EvC Forum: Dating the Exodus -->EvC Forum: Dating the Exodus "But a lack in archaeological evidence for an Israelite occupation during the 15th century does not automatically prove an absence of such. And it would do skeptics well to remember that the location in Egypt known as Tell el-Maskhouta (identified as the biblical succoth, and the stronghold from which Egypt would launch her campaigns into Palestine and Syria) has yielded no archaeological evidence whatsoever for signs of military buildings, barracks, forts or any other such structures during the 18th and 19th dynasties, notwithstanding the fact that Egyptian records testify to their existence."From: Professor Cyrus Gordon, Field archaeologist in the Near East 1931-5 and conducted exploratory missions in the East Mediterranean.
Authority on Ugaritic Tablets; eight years engaged in deciphering the Minoan and Eteocretan inscriptions.Author: "Ugaritic Literature" (1949), "Ugaritic Textbook" (1940, 1947,1955, 1965), "Adventures in the Nearest East" (1941, 1957), "Hammurapi's Code" (1957), "The Ancient Near East" (1953, 1958, 1965), "Evidence for the Minoan Language" (1965), "Ugarit and Minoan Crete" (1966)And from: "Common Backround of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations" (1963, 1965)[Norton and Company; New York]: "What emerges is noteworthy: the first high civilization of Europe was founded by Semites [Shemites] ejected from the Delta around 1800 BC; the Hebrew nation was a kindred group of Semites emanating from the same Delta"

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"The people of Egypt have from time immemorial regarded their land as the gift of the Nile. Wherever the River's waters reach, the soil is fertile. Beyond, there is only desert.

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The Land, almost sealed off from the rest of the world, is ideally suited for nurturing a distinctive civilisation. It is only at the north and south ends of the long, narrow country that Egypt is open to outside influences. The far south has always been open to Black Africa. The Delta (or Lower Egypt) has always been part of the Levant or East Mediterranean. Upper Egypt as the long area in between is called, has therefore been the most distinctive part of Egypt. It is the usual centre of nationalism, and because of its dry climate, where papyri and other organic material are well preserved, most of what we know archaeologically of ancient Egypt is from there. This has its unfortunate side, because it was precisely the Delta that had direct contact by land with Canaan, and by the sea with the Greeks, Phoenicians and other East Mediterranean peoples. The relative dearth of ancient remains in the Delta is in part responsible for the general underestimation of Egypt's role in the birth of Western Civilisation."Ray Martinez: We also know the chronic flooding of the Nile wiped out archaeological remains, and of course the Bible specifies Israel dwelt in Goshen/Lower Egypt.According to Biblical chronology the Exodus date is 1453 BC, plus at least 400 years in Egypt which pushes their presence back to c.1850 BC right in line with Gordon's "around 1800 BC" date.Hydarnes is citing a Bimson quote which I have ONE use for:Egyptian texts citing something archaeology has yet to find.Is this thread assuming archaeology to be the standard by which truth is determined and measured by ?Ray MartinezThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-24-2005 04:06 PM

You must of somehow missed it: RM

Your question assumes the Bible is not evidence.Literary is premium evidence, archaelogical is sub-premium, dependant upon the arbitrary and capricious kindness of time, environment, and weather.What evidence do you have that supports your archaeology reports stating there is no evidence of Hebrews in Egypt ?Ray Martinez

Takes one to know one.Could it be that you do not like the evidence ? Who said they were ?Please paste the post number and quote.What relevance does Egypt have in this issue ? Thats what the evidence/quotes said.What is your point ? Who claimed they were ?And where ?Please paste the post and quote or your input here is deliberate confusion. No shit !At least you got something right.....whats your point ? I have no idea what your point is or what you are talking about.This comment is a non-sequitur and incoherent to anything posted or argued.Please try again. Agreed.Then the same goes with the book of Exodus and the alleged inability to link what it says with physical data in Egypt.Ray Martinez

Opinion above silently recognizes that the Scriptural records are consistent.Then by the same standard, what confirms archaeology reports stating there is no evidence of Hebrews in Egypt ?I also noticed you completely ignored my logical observation that archaeology is dependant upon the arbitrary and capricious kindness of time, environment, and weather.This is WHY literary is produced so facts of history are preserved and not subject to being lost due to the unpredictible conditions cited above.Here is more evidence of Moses/Hebrews in Egypt: RMEdit:Correction: changed the word "texts" to "language".RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-24-2005 06:18 PM

What percentage of sites in Sinai and Lower Egypt have been properly excavated in relation to the total number of sites scholars know of ?RM

Where is this link ?RM

You assume Ahmose was a New Kingdom Pharoah.The link does [edit] not [end edit] contain "official New Kingdom language".From your link: "After this (his majesty) proceeded to Retenu, to vent his wrath throughout the lands""Retenu" is Palestine. What evidence exists that a Pharoah in c.1580 BC vented wrath there ?RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 02:51 PMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 04:20 PM

The Hyksos fled by ships after negotiating their release from power. I totally agree.But I want to wait for Brian as he has two related topics now in progress. Because he wrote what God told him to write. The genius of the Torah reflects the genius of God. This is the claim ALL of the Bible was written under. Thanks for asking.I will get back to this as I have to suddenly go off-line.RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 03:01 PMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 03:02 PM