Demonstration in Iraq vs. Liberation of Iraq...

quite right. Even the iraqi parliament (who supposedly are the democratic executive of iraq, and who are more pro-US than the general population) are saying that democracy in iraq is a sham - check out http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&...

Tal,When I use a public source of information like znet, I treat it with caution. You are correct to say that znet have their own political agenda.But when your riposte cites a non-public military source of information that is I'm meant to take it seriously? If you had bothered to check you would have found that the story was reported by the highly reputed Associated Press agency, and was syndicated widely in print and in respectable newspapers. You are quite wrong to say that "no news agency covered it". It was syndicated widely in print by news organizations including the Guardian, ABC news, The Scotsman, Seattle Times, The Washington Post, News International, and many others. It was also reported by some of the (less respectable) agencies you claim didn't report it, such as URL=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,153865,00.htmlFox news[/url].You were clearly wrong to say that "no news agency covered it" That's right, the abuse of iraqi civilians has been going on a long time, and continues. I will criticise whoever I see fit, whether they are a US soldier or not, thankyou very much. But before you make unsubstantiated claims about news coverage, you might want to search news.google.com next time.added in edit:Your attitude is actually proof of my point. You completely disregard that the Iraqi assembly expressed concern over the treatment of one of their members by the US military, because you place more faith in the unattributable claims of the soldiers. The Iraqi assembly is elected, no matter how weak its democratic mandate may seem to be. But the US soldiers were not elected, nor are they welcome. A person who would rather trust the unattributable statements of occupying US soldiers than democratically elected representatives is making a clear statement about their own contempt of democracy.This message has been edited by mick to correct links and add an extra comment, 04-29-2005 06:13 PMThis message has been edited by mick, 04-29-2005 06:19 PM

I agree.There is actually an interesting interview with Danny Schechter, who is filming a documentary about US media coverage of the war, and who seems to agree with your points. As this is being reported by a reputable news source (Al Jazeera, which is somewhat superior to Fox in my experience) it will also keep Tal happy.

Okay, I don't think you are going to be convinced so I'm pulling out of this debate.Before leaving, I would like to make one final point. Do the US soldiers do their job well? Your faith in the US military is endearing but I don't share it. There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that US soldiers simply aren't very good at their jobs.The FBI have formally documented the criminality of the American military. In a memo released under the freedom of information act, they describe the US military's interrogation techniques as "torture" and complain that torture is carried out by military personnel dressed up (illegally) as FBI agents. The memo is available hereA report from a group of Iraqi physicians based in the General Hospital at Fallujah is described hereThe official red cross report on human rights violations committed by US soldiers against Iraqi detainees is available hereA Christian humanitarian organization carried out interviews with Iraqi civilians who complained of abuse and posted the interview transcripts hereGovernment documents condoning torture are provided hereThe Lancet describes "a continued and preventable loss of innocent life" hereLegal basis of ACLU's lawsuit against civilian and military US personnel can be found hereLawsuit against Rumsfeld is described hereLawsuit against Karpinski is described hereLawsuit against Sanchez is described hereLawsuit against Pappas is described hereSo the US army's ineptitude is catalogued by Iraqi doctors, Christian aid groups, the Red Cross, The Lancet, the ACLU and indeed by the FBI. Several members of the ACLU's prosecuting team are retired senior members of the US military.You may have some difficulty in claiming that these reports, from respectable groups or reputable organizations, are ALL subject to the same myopic media bias.It is clear that US soldiers are both inept and criminal, and it has been documented by the FBI that some of them are torturers.Enjoy!This message has been edited by mick, 05-02-2005 01:12 PMThis message has been edited by mick, 05-02-2005 01:34 PM

Tal, I'm sorry but i really do want to leave this thread alone now. I don't think we're getting anywhere, and its just a waste of time for both of us.The fact is, US soldiers have been shown to be liars, criminals and torturers. It's sad but it is a fact. It has been well documented. What the US military says about the conflict in Iraq has no consequence on the reality.Given our differing views about the reliability of different sources, our conversation can simply not proceed.With all respect,mick