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Author
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Topic: Is Jesus of 'Cursed Lineage'
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: 12-04-2005
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Message 16 of 206 (173054)
01-02-2005 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Brian
01-02-2005 1:32 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Brian, By Joseph, Jesus inherited a legal claim to the throne of David as his son. However, he was exempt from the curse of Jehoiakim because Joseph was not his genetic father. Runtime Error
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 1:32 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 1:49 PM | | johnfolton has not replied | | | Message 22 by sidelined, posted 01-02-2005 2:05 PM | | johnfolton has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 17 of 206 (173055)
01-02-2005 1:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by jar
01-02-2005 1:22 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Hi Jar, Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD Jesus must have friends in high places  Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by jar, posted 01-02-2005 1:22 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Hi Tom, The messiah was to be from the BLOODLINE of David, as you have discovered Jesus does not have any Davidic blood, thus he could not have been the messiah. 2 Samuel 7:12-13 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
The messiah is to be of direct descent from David, specifically though Solomon, which further negates Mary's 'genealogy'. The curse itself does not really make any difference as Jesus was not of Davidic blood. Conclusion, Jesus simply cannot be the messiah. Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2005 1:38 PM | | johnfolton has not replied |
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johnfolton
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: 12-04-2005
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Message 19 of 206 (173057)
01-02-2005 1:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
01-02-2005 1:41 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Brian, Jesus was not formed from a jewish father and a heathen mother union. Nice try though kjv Deu 23:2 A bastard4464 shall not3808 enter935 into the congregation6951 of the LORD;3068 even1571 to his tenth6224 generation1755 shall he not3808 enter935 into the congregation6951 of the LORD.3068 H4464 mamze^r mam-zare' From an unused root mian. to alienate; a mongrel, that is, born of a Jewish father and a heathen mother: - bastard.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 1:41 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:00 PM | | johnfolton has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
But Jesus was a bastard none the less wasn't he? Bastards are not unique to the Old testament. BTW, I was pulling Jar's wee leg Brian
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2005 1:52 PM | | johnfolton has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 21 of 206 (173061)
01-02-2005 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
01-02-2005 2:00 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
BTW, I was pulling Jar's wee leg You just leave my wee leg alone. Now Schraf or the Queen ...
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:00 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
By Joseph, Jesus inherited a legal claim to the throne of David as his son That is just it though he was not Joseph's son.The seed of Joseph is the only one entitled to the legal claim.Bloodline is maintained through the father of the child not the mother.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2005 1:38 PM | | johnfolton has replied |
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johnfolton
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: 12-04-2005
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Message 23 of 206 (173067)
01-02-2005 2:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
01-02-2005 2:00 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Brian, That link I provided says Jesus genetically the son of David through his other son Nathan. It appears the virgin birth satisfies 2 Samuel 7:12-17, that Nathan was of the seed of David. I don't see how Jesus could be a bastard genetically, if he was made from Mary. Marys genes were pure thru Nathan to King David. 2 Samuel 7:12 It only seemed to refer to David's seed, so don't see how this discludes Nathan , Davids other son, is also of Davids seed. 2 Samuel 7:17 It is quite interesting that Nathan, was given this message from the Lord.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:00 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:31 PM | | johnfolton has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Hi Tom, 2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. God has promised David to set up his seed after David is dead specifically through the son who built a house for God's name, namely the Solomonic Temple. The bloodline passes through Solomon's line as he built the Lord's house, Nathan is not included here. Also, the purity of genes (whatever that is) makes no difference to whether someone was married or not.
It is quite interesting that Nathan, was given this message from the Lord. He was given it to deliver to David. Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2005 2:24 PM | | johnfolton has replied |
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johnfolton
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: 12-04-2005
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Message 25 of 206 (173071)
01-02-2005 2:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by sidelined
01-02-2005 2:05 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
sidelined, Jesus being born to Joesph's family was the legal son of Joesph, thus a legal heir to the throne. Because his genetics go thru Nathan he satisfies being of the seed of David. Also, God had promised David that one of his physical descendants would reign on the throne of his kingdom forever (2 Samuel 7:12-13). As explained above, Joseph was excluded from being the genetic father of the future king of Israel. It was impossible to fulfill the requirements of both curse and promise by natural means. One man had to be both heir to and offspring of David, without being the genetic descendant of Jehoiakim. This problem required a divine solution Runtime Error
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by sidelined, posted 01-02-2005 2:05 PM | | sidelined has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by sidelined, posted 01-03-2005 2:33 AM | | johnfolton has not replied |
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johnfolton
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: 12-04-2005
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Message 26 of 206 (173084)
01-02-2005 3:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
01-02-2005 2:31 PM
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Brian, 1 kings 11:11 Wherefore the Lord said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. 1 kings 11:12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. 1 kings 11:39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever. God cursed Jehoiakim by indicating that none of his children would sit on the throne of David (Jeremiah 36:29-31).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 2:31 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
Because his genetics go thru Nathan he satisfies being of the seed of David. If you can please show me the names of people listed starting with David and mentioned in the Old Testament to corroberate the bloodline. You will find some that are only mentioned in the book of Luke.{ Mattatha.Menan,Melea, Jonan,Juda,etc}Would you care to explain why the OT neglects to mention them since the bloodline is an important part of the prophesy in the OT? Here is rhe passage in Luke.Show a corresponance between these names and those of the OT.
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli, Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi, which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Janna, which was [the son] of Joseph, Luk 3:25 Which was [the son] of Mattathias, which was [the son] of Amos, which was [the son] of Naum, which was [the son] of Esli, which was [the son] of Nagge, Luk 3:26 Which was [the son] of Maath, which was [the son] of Mattathias, which was [the son] of Semei, which was [the son] of Joseph, which was [the son] of Juda, Luk 3:27 Which was [the son] of Joanna, which was [the son] of Rhesa, which was [the son] of Zorobabel, which was [the son] of Salathiel, which was [the son] of Neri, Luk 3:28 Which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Addi, which was [the son] of Cosam, which was [the son] of Elmodam, which was [the son] of Er, Luk 3:29 Which was [the son] of Jose, which was [the son] of Eliezer, which was [the son] of Jorim, which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi, Luk 3:30 Which was [the son] of Simeon, which was [the son] of Juda, which was [the son] of Joseph, which was [the son] of Jonan, which was [the son] of Eliakim, Luk 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2005 2:37 PM | | johnfolton has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
There was no sex involved, he was simply made from the seed of Mary(cloned), this makes Mary's biological dad the biological dad of Jesus(he was the son of Heli). This virgin birth allowed Jesus to be exempt from the curse, and fullfill made of a woman and made under the law. if that is the case, then jesus is neither the son of joseph nor the son of god, but the *ahem* bastard son of heli (assuming luke says that heli was mary's father, which it does not). this would be the same as lot's two children by his daughters, in genesis, who are btw eponymous ancestors of people the authors didn't seem to like.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2005 1:18 PM | | johnfolton has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 29 of 206 (173263)
01-03-2005 2:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Brian
01-02-2005 1:32 PM
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Re: Jesus genetically was the Son of Heli
But, hereditary titles and anything else, never passes through the mother except hebrew ethnicity. in cases of jewish father and a gentile mother, the child is not accepted as being of hebrew lineage. but if the mother is jewish and the father is a gentile, it is. so something obviously goes through the mother. but no, not titles.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Brian, posted 01-02-2005 1:32 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 30 of 206 (173264)
01-03-2005 2:57 AM
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a thought
haven't bothered to make my call on this, since i don't especially care. i think all genealogies are bunk. but i've heard a suggest that instead of reading: "And Jesus himself... being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli..." it should read: "And Jesus himself... being (as was supposed the son of Joseph), but was [the son] of Heli..." i'm not making some kind of off-the-wall claim like tom was, but i'm curious if anyone knows anything on this. and what would luke be claiming? it doesn't seem like heli is mary's father, that's extrabiblical (and to account for this very verse, i might add). is it saying that mary slept around? or is luke correcting a detail? or what?
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