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Author Topic:   evolution of judaism
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 82 (148362)
10-08-2004 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by JasonChin
10-07-2004 10:56 AM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
Originally posted by JasonChin
Actually, the particular passage you quote doesn't show that. If you loko at it in the original Hebrew, while 'Elohim' is plural, the verb after it is in singular format. This is a technique in Hebrew that magnifies the importance of the noun.
Hello JasonChin,
Actually, the (singular) verb precedes Elohim in the Hebrew syntax. Nonetheless, the technique you refer to is called the intensive form and it is one explanation that is offered.
quote:
Originally posted by JasonChin
It was done with David and Moses too, but no one thinks it was refering to more than one David, or more than one Moses.
In Exodus 7:1, the Torah says, "And YHWH said to Moses, See, I have made you elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet."
However, I am unaware of any intensive usages of either "David" or "Moses" in the HB.
Are you referring to extra-biblical references? Do you have citations for where the intensive forms of these names can be found?
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 10:56 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 12:51 PM Amlodhi has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 82 (148411)
10-08-2004 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 12:51 PM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
Originally posted by JasonChin
Actually, I didn't say that stuff, I just quoted it in my post.
Thanks JasonChin, I see now that you were quoting ramoss.
P.S. You really should look into utilizing the quote function for clarity.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 12:51 PM JasonChin has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 82 (148658)
10-09-2004 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
10-08-2004 3:37 PM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
Originally posted by Arachnophilia
. . . the d document (most deutoronomy. this document was found, according to the bible, during the reign of hezekiah). . .
Hi Arachnophilia,
Though I'm quite sure you know this and have merely gotten your thoughts crossed, for the benefit of any lurking readers, IIRC the "book of the law" (which is often suspected of being our Deuteronomy) was allegedly found in the reign of Josiah, rather than that of Hezekiah.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 7:51 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 82 (149101)
10-11-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by JasonChin
10-11-2004 3:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by JasonChin
Maybe if your topic was more interesting, people would want to discuss it.....
IMO, brennakimi has proposed a very interesting topic and I (for one) am eager to discuss it as soon as the digression wanes.
And further, I think such rude comments and inconsiderate, ill-formatted posts speak volumes about someone who didn't even know the structure of השם until it was patiently explained to him on this forum.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by JasonChin, posted 10-11-2004 3:29 AM JasonChin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-18-2004 10:53 PM Amlodhi has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 82 (150992)
10-19-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by macaroniandcheese
10-18-2004 10:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by brennakimi
. . . towards the earlier books and some other selected texts, Judaism seems a more naturalistic (i hesitate to say pagan) religion with a whole pantheon (God of gods) but one special God who should be worshipped alone.
Hello brennakimi,
I agree with you and there are several examples (even post-redaction) that tend to indicate a progression from animistic/polytheistic > territorial/henotheistic > montheistic.
A couple of (what I think are) interesting examples of territorialism/henotheism are:
II Kings 3:27 describes the kings of Israel, Judah and Edom going up against the king of Moab. Earlier, in verse 19, God commanded them to "smite every choice city, etc. etc.".
The king of Moab, being apprised of their approach, went on the offensive and attacked them in their encampment outside of the borders of Moab. The kings of Israel, Judah and Edom, rose up in turn and proceeded to pursue the Moabites back over the border and into the land of Moab proper.
Verses 26 & 27 say that "when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him . . . (27) . . . he took his eldest son. . and offered him (to the god Chemosh) for a burnt offering on the wall."
Verse 27 continues: ". . . and there was great wrath against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land."
Now, the KJV translates the term קצף (qetseph) as "indignance" rather than as "wrath". This seems to me to be an attempt to make it appear as though the Israelites were simply "disgusted" by this human sacrifice and, in effect, took their toys and went home.
But this appears to me to be a bit of spin doctoring. First off, a check of the lexicon definitions and the usage in other parts of the OT reveal that whether translated as "indignance" or "wrath", this term is consistently used in the sense of "burning anger" with an implied (and sometimes overt) threat of retribution.
Second, the verse clearly states that this "wrath" is directed against Israel.
And third, it makes no sense that Israel (& Judah, etal) would pack up and go home at this point. If they had the Moabite king on the ropes, and if they understood that this was an ineffectual sacrifice to a non-existent god, their "disgust" would have more likely compelled them to finish the job.
Instead, this seems to reflect a genuine belief in a territorial/henotheistic pantheon. The Israelites (etal) were now in Moabite territory, the Moabite king made a powerful sacrifice to Chemosh (god of that territory), as a result, there was "wrath" directed toward Israel (or so they thought) which compelled them to leave off from a battle which they had all but won and return to the safety of " their own territory ".
This story can make little sense except in the context of a genuine belief in territorial deities.
Another example is found a couple of chapters later (II Kings chapter 5) in the story of Naaman. According to the story, Naaman (of Syria) has leprosy and is told by his wife (a captive out of Israel) that the prophet (Elisha) in Israel could intercede for his recovery.
Naaman seeks out Elisha in Israel and (after following Elisha's instructions) is cured of his leprosy. Verse 15, then, has Naaman return to Elisha and exclaim, ". . . now I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel." .
Naaman goes on to say that he wants to worship YHWH in his own country. Thus, in verse 17, he says, ". . . Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mule's burden of earth?"
Now why would Naaman want two mule's burden of Israel's dirt?
Because in the territorialist mindset of the time, YHWH wasn't the god of Syria. Thus, in order for Naaman to worship YHWH outside of YHWH's territory, he would need to take some of YHWH's territory back home with him.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-18-2004 10:53 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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