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Author Topic:   evolution of judaism
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 82 (148065)
10-07-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by JasonChin
10-07-2004 8:17 AM


Re: brennakimi
IMHO, all that is shown in those passages is the Royal We. Even today that is common among royalty. Look at formal statements from any monarch.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by JasonChin, posted 10-07-2004 8:17 AM JasonChin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 82 (148306)
10-08-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 9:28 AM


Re: brennakimi
GENISIS is later tradition?
Sure, it is a compendium of different oral traditions from different times that were shoehorned together. It's a patchwork quilt. Genesis 1 & 2 are from two different periods, Gen 1 being much younger than Gen 2 for example.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 9:28 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 11:10 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 82 (148315)
10-08-2004 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 11:10 AM


Re: brennakimi
You have to remember that the Bible, whether we are refering to what Christians call the Old Testament or the Jews the Tanakh is a fairly recent thing. It is not something that was written as a documant in chronological order. Rather they are compilations, an anthology. The individual stories were gathered together and not written by one author, Moses or any other single figure.
I don't believe that and scholar believes that Moses wrote Genesis.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 11:10 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 12:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 82 (148479)
10-08-2004 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 12:14 PM


Re: brennakimi
Actually, the stories from Genesis probably date hundreds to even thousands of years before Moses. They seem to have been based on oral traditions that likely even predate the Hebrews themselves.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 12:14 PM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:09 AM jar has replied
 Message 43 by almeyda, posted 10-09-2004 12:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 82 (148655)
10-09-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by JasonChin
10-09-2004 3:09 AM


Re: brennakimi
same reason for why they couldn't post-date Moses by too much.
You do realize that a common tactic until just recently was to write a treatise and attribute it to one of the earlier authors, such as Plato, Aristotle or other ancient sages?
Even today, people write tales and place them in earlier periods. Mary Stewart made a nice carreer doing just that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:09 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 82 (148743)
10-09-2004 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by almeyda
10-09-2004 12:01 PM


Re: brennakimi
One key thing is that Genesis was not written by one person whether it was Moses or anyone else. Instead, it is an anthology of many independent and sometimes mutually exclusive stories. For example, Genesis 1 & 2 tell two completely different stories. These stories show two very different voices, two very differnt eras, two very different concepts of GOD and of creation.
Moses may have written down part of it, but it's pretty certain that he did not write the whole thing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 43 by almeyda, posted 10-09-2004 12:01 PM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by JasonChin, posted 10-10-2004 2:44 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 82 (148888)
10-10-2004 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by arachnophilia
10-10-2004 6:48 AM


It looks like this is pretty pointless.
Can we try to get back towards the topic. If Jason wants to debate Genesis 1 & 2 let him wander over to that thread. In the meantime, perhaps we can get on with discussing the evolution of Judaism.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 10-10-2004 6:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by arachnophilia, posted 10-10-2004 5:29 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 82 (148904)
10-10-2004 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by JasonChin
10-10-2004 2:44 AM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
jar said:
One key thing is that Genesis was not written by one person whether it was Moses or anyone else. Instead, it is an anthology of many independent and sometimes mutually exclusive stories. For example, Genesis 1 & 2 tell two completely different stories.
to which jasonChin responded:
That's not true.
Jason, it might have been better if you had said "I don't believe that is true. I believe that all of Genesis was written by one man."
That would be a better statement of your position.
However, almost every major Christian religion believes that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 were written by two different authors from two different traditions from two different eras. Gensis 2 is and older tale while Genesis 1 is from a much later period.
Here is what Bishop Sims of the Episcopal Church Atlanta Diocese said related to the accounts in Genesis 1&2:
But even here the distinction between religion and science is clear. In Genesis there is not one creation statement but two. They agree as to why and who, but are quite different as to how and when. The statements are set forth in tandem, chapter one of Genesis using one description of method and chapter two another. According to the first, humanity was created, male and female, after the creation of plants and animals. According to the second, man was created first, then the trees, the animals and finally the woman and not from the earth as in the first account, but from the rib of the man. Textual research shows that these two accounts are from two distinct eras, the first later in history, the second earlier. emphasis added
So the issue of who wrote Genesis is certainly open to discussion. The majority of the evidence today is that there were multiple sources from multiple periods with very different theologies.
But to move back towards the topic, Judaism, like Christianity, is a composite, adoptive religion. It adopted and modified tales and stories from the religions that preceeded it, taking their tales and beliefs and incorporating them with a Judaic slant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by JasonChin, posted 10-10-2004 2:44 AM JasonChin has not replied

  
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