God and the human mind

Well, I was born into a very religious family so religion, God and Christianity was simply a given during my early years.I think one strong influence was the relations with the various ministers I knew as a youth. They were a great example, friends and mentors rather than teachers or priests. They introduced me to a friend of theirs named Jesus. And placed the friendship in a reasonable position.I remember once when the Bishop was there for Confirmation. A lot of the little kids had questions so the minister stopped the service and called all the kids up beyond the rail. He lifted the smallest up onto the altar, the others sat around the base, while he sat on the floor explaining the service, the part the Bishop played and what was the part that parents, kids, priests and family played.Like most kids, I most certainly did question my beliefs, both personally and formally. I was lucky enough to attend a Church sponsored school that actually encouraged questioning your faiths and beliefs. They ecouraged exploring other faith systems, eastern religions, early moral systems from the Greeks to the Egyptians, from East and West. They encouraged examining as many philosophies as possible, Kant, Kierkegaard, Hume, Nietzsche, Machiavelli, Leibniz, Descartes, Sartre and others. We spent years studying Confucius, Mencius, Buddha, Islam, Judaism and Christianity.By around the 9th grade I remember writing a sound paper proving there was no God, at that age you can prove most anything. But I saw, and still see, so much evidence that there is a GOD. There are things we can measure, like the awsome rules we've found that seem to regulate the world, and things we cannot measure like beauty and love.I know there are many that do not believe in GOD, and that's fine. GOD does not depend on belief. And he loves even those who do not believe in him.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

They varied considerably over the years. Most were Whiskeypalians but my Grandfather on my Mothers side was an Elder in the Presbyterian Church and so there was some influence from that side. Then, about when I was in my early teens, there was this little brown eyed girl that convinced me that GOD was hiding in with the Royal Ambassadors. She lasted longer than I did in the RAs.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Only if you believe the universe was created for GOD-worshipping life. If the Universe were created for GOD's enjoyment and unrelated to worship, that would not hold.GOD does not depend on our belief or knowledge.GOD is.If humans had never evolved the universe would still go on. As would GOD.There is a certain human centric quality to modern religions, but that is only when viewed through our limited perceptions. We, as humans, may hold no special place and it is only our internal perceptions that might lead anyone to think worshipers are something special.A beaver thinks his den as fine as, and preferable to, any skyscraper.edited to add requisite spelling errorsThis message has been edited by jar, 09-08-2004 05:11 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely.If there is a GOD, one capable of creating the universe, of thinking into existence all the beautiful and aesthetic rules we are discovering, who understands intuitively the relationship between gravity and the other forces, would he care what you or I believed about him? Do you worry if microbes believe in you, or if dirt believes in you?That's one of the reasons I disagree so often with other Christians that say atheists are damned or if you deny Jesus you'll be damned.How silly.Something with so little self confidence that it could become upset if I didn't believe in it is not something that could have created the Universe.Early Judaism and Christianity wrote all kinds of things into the Company Handbook (called the Bible) that were solely designed to increase the value of the concession. If you don't say these words you're not a member. If you don't cough up the two chickens and a goat you will be sanctioned. But they are only there for the franchise. It's like wearing the apron at Wendy's.I like to take folk back to Matthew 25 Look through that. Where does it say anything about what you profess to believe? If you live that, then you have loved GOD. Even if you do not believe in GOD, you have loved him.But as I said in the other post, even if humans had never evolved, it would say nothing about the existence of GOD. Humans did not create GOD, GOD created the universe.edited to add an h to aesthetic. GOD never made me a spelling bee champ. This message has been edited by jar, 09-08-2004 05:38 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We are limited, very limited, in language and in understanding. But every day we learn a little more. Someday we may even be able to read GOD's handwriting.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hangdawg said:

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1) Unless I could prove to you that God exists, I cannot not prove that I am not decieving myself.

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to which Gilgamesh replied Gilgamesh, why does that have to be true? As I have pointed out in many posts, if GOD is capable of appearing and reaching out to people more than once, what limits him from reaching out again and again? If GOD is, as we believe, someone capable of thinking this Universe and all of the sublime and aesthetic rules that govern what happens, would he not be capable of reaching out to people in a format they could accept?Is there any reason to think that all the GODs might not be simply GOD?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Many Christians understand that the Bible was written, revised, modified, vetted and interpreted by plain old men, that it was written by people of a given age, for people of a given age and that much of it is limited by their level of knowledge.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, there are people that believe as your quote suggests. Why would anyone judge the mind of the author by anything other than what was written down?The GOD, and religion in general deal with the WHY of the universe.They teach how to live with one another, what your relationship with GOD should be.But also, every society has tried to explain the world we all live in. In each case they try to do so using the best information available.We continue to try to explain the world around us today using the best information available. But we have far more information today than those from thousands of years ago.Frankly, Pastor John MacArthur sounds like he is only protecting his postition, preaching, as seen in many books of the Bible, the company line.A GOD that is capable of creating this universe, one that intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not a GOD that would want us to be stupid. He is not someone who would lie to us just for the fun of it.This message has been edited by jar, 09-11-2004 10:06 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, it is very close to the mainstream Christian approach. There is an emerging movement, the ecumenical movement, which is moving towards this very belief. And it's not all that new, if you read the Koran with an open mind, you will find Christians, Jews and Muslims all described as Children of the Book. Throughout the Koran are admonishments for the faithful to refrain from trying to impose Islam on outside people.During the great Muslim expansion they never tried to close down other beliefs or stop others from worshiping. When the local ruler in Jerusalem burned down one of the Christian Churches (used as an excuse for the first Crusade), the Sultan in Bagdad had the local ruler removed and executed and rebuilt the church at his own expense. In fact the church had been restored years before the Crusaders attacked. Well, I happen to believe that it is not GOD's doing that is the problem. Rather, it is individual humans perverting religion to secure their own power base. When you look at the teachings of a Gene Scott, Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts or the militant Islamics or Jews or Hindus or pick any religion, they are simply in it for themselves. They are using religion to further financial or political agendas. It's only about power.It is little, provincial minds.The fighting in the middle east is not over religion, it is about who will be in power, who will control land. In that struggle, as in terrorism, religion is simply one of the tools used by bad guys to recruit and motivate those who can be swayed, those who do not apply critical thinking to their belief system.That is the big reason I have never opposed the OP of this thread. When you divorce critical thinking from belief, you open yourself to manipulation by the unscrupulous. And that happens all the time. Unfortunately, with the modern media, satellites, tv and the internet, those, like the names I have mentioned who would pervert religion, can reach far larger audiences than a preacher standing on the shore, trying to set up a fish fry. I typed "the" but the stupid forum software (it could not have been me) converted my typing to an "in" so I had to edit it to correct the software's error.This message has been edited by jar, 09-12-2004 11:35 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I had to comment on that statement because it couold not be more wrong.riVeRraT, you have things 180^o out. Learning how to think is a sure inoculation and the only inoculation against brainwashing. What you describe, teaching knowledge is the true definition of brainwashing.You need to step back and re-examine some of your concepts.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Even if it is correct, that method is called brainwashing. Parrots do it well. Never. Teaching someone how to think carries no content. It can NEVER be brainwashing.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You sure don't understand.Thinking is a skill, just like any other skill. It's a combination of technique and training. It can be taught just like any other skill. You'll have to explain that. LOL

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The topic is GOD and the human mind. Thinking is certainly a component of both understanding the concept of GOD and of the mind.My question to you is "How can you think wrong?"This is not about content but goes to the heart of the concept of mind.Can you give an example of thinking wrong?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

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jar wrote:
Why would anyone judge the mind of the author by anything other than what was written down?

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to which Phatboy replied: and that is a great point which I will try to address in the next paragraph. Hang loose.

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jar went on to say:
A GOD that is capable of creating this universe, one that intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not a GOD that would want us to be stupid. He is not someone who would lie to us just for the fun of it.

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and Phatboy replied: You are very right when you say "What I get is the different opinions of human authors/philosophers. "So, I am assuming that you agree that GOD would not lie to us just for the fun of it. If that is the case, then GOD gave us a great gift and also left us a direct record written by his hand alone and never touched by Human authors/philosophers.The gift is the ability to think critically. Seemingly unique among the untold billions of critters that have lived on this earth over billions of years, Humans seem to have the capacity to wonder about the universe and the capability to pass knowledge down from generation to generation, adding new data as it is found, seeking new and better explanations of all the evidence.The Bible, as I have said, is written by man, vetted by man, revised, translated and modified by man. There is not even one common canon for all Christianity. Different Christian churches have different Bibles. Not just different translations or languages, but differing Books to be included and excluded.But that is not the case of the world around us. Humans did not make the dinosaurs, nor have we yet made a galaxy, a star, a black hole or even a new force. We don't make gravity or even fully understand it.But we can use the gift from GOD, our Mind, to understand the record that he left us, the Universe. And when there is a conflict between the record HE left us and what authors/philosophers have written, HE expects us to use our mind and realize that the authors/philosophers got it wrong. They were probably trying their best, but they simply did not have the information, the data, the evidence that we have today.And in the future, when we have even more evidence, more data, better theories, we will surely find even more places where the authors/philosophers got it wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, you didn't think wrong. For a 5 year old you did quite well. You watched and formed a hypothesis. Did you take it to the next level and try to figure out what was happening? Did you then come up with a way to test the hypothesis?Thinking is not the content, it's the process, procedure and skills.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion