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Author Topic:   The continuation of art styles through a speculated flood
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 14 of 141 (140229)
09-06-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object
09-05-2004 6:10 PM


WILLOWTREE writes:
The FACT that there are Flood accounts in diverse worldwide civilizations means a Flood happened.
I don't think anyone would argue that floods have happened within human history. Even catastrophic floods:
Catastrophic Flooding of The Black Sea
is an overview of a really great book by William Ryan & Walter Pitman called Noah's Flood. (Great read!)
To summerize, they uncovered some pretty convincing evidence that a massive flooding event occured in the Black Sea with the high probability that there were significant human populations nearby due to poor environmental conditions in Europe and Fertile Crecent. The flooding would have happened such that the encroachment on land would be approx 1 mile per day! To any non-nomadic civilizations near the original coast of the Black Sea, this would have been a terrible thing, certainly worthy of myth.
WILLOWTREE writes:
It is pure nonsense to expect anyone to believe that the multiplicity of worldwide Flood accounts is not based upon a historical event.
There are plenty of people who do not disregard the potential historic and geologic evidence for very catastrophic floods. Most people just know that the flood from these accounts was definitly not global. Certainly to the people who experienced it it may have seemed like their whole world was being flooded. If the children of God were present for this event why couldn't have God used this event in its mythological capacity to deliver a message of theologic importance to his people?
By the way. As long as were are bringing up other flood myths, what came first Gilgamesh or Genesis?
COMPARISON OF BABYLONIAN AND NOAHIC FLOOD STORIES
Kudos and God Bless,

-Nasser

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-05-2004 6:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-07-2004 10:00 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 52 of 141 (140855)
09-08-2004 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object
09-07-2004 10:00 PM


WILLOWTREE writes:
You post evidence of a catastrophe then contrary to your evidence you brand it a myth. Where is the integrity in this ?
Myth - A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.
So even describing something that actually happened can be a myth. You seem to think that a myth must be totally based on imagination. That is simply not the definition of a myth.
WILLOWTREE writes:
Evolutionists sure argue against anything catastrophic.
Actually it seems to me that many people so far in this thread have argued that floods have happpen. Isn't pretty much any flood event a catastrophy? Lets take a look back shall we:
crashfrog writes:
All those places flood, though. And their flood accounts don't match each other in terms of time, etc.
Why is the only explanation One Big Flood? How can the One Big Flood have happened when so much evidence contradicts it?
Ifen writes:
The existence of these accounts can be attributed to a flood occuring at some point in time, but not the same flood.
RAZD writes:
The fact that all such myths have many very different and divergent accounts of those events proves that they are relating to different events.
Agricultural societies began on floodplains, so one would expect every agricultural society to have a flood myth.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that catastrophy does not happen. If you need one more then consider myself. Catastrophy is an important aspect of the study of classical geology.
IOW, they were dumb ass neanderthals and you are going to tell us what they should have said.
No not neanderthals. Most definitly Homo Sapians. The first of our species to develop agriculture and bind themselves to one place such that an event like a flood would be disasterous. What would a flood be to a nomad? All they would have to do is pick up and walk the opposite direction. One mile per day is nothing for a civilization that isn't required to be stationary. For those whos life depends on structures, storage, crops, etc, a flood would be an awful thing to endure.
Also, we are not going to tell them what the should have said. They said what they did and wrote it down when writing became practical. All we can do is interpret what they left behind.
WILLOWTREE writes:
IOW, they didn't mean what they said, and you evos somehow "know" this.
Well, we could read what they write and decide that there really was ogres and such but since we do live in an age where we are a little less gullible then that we can use our knowledge that we have gained throughout history to try and decipher what real life elements are represented by the myth. You make it seem like historians are making up stories for their own convienence. You also assume all historians are "evos". Do you like living in a polarized world?
WILLOWTREE writes:
All you are doing is shouting down the evidence with rhetoric/misuse of logic.
Please show me how I have shouted down the evidence with rhetoric and misuse of logic. I do not ever intend to be illogical. In fact I am certainly not the one making absolute statements like "evos somehow 'know'" and "evos argue against anything catastrophic" which are certainly not true.
I hope that your reply can point out any logical fallacies that I am making in my statements. I look forward to hearning from you.
God Bless,

-Nasser

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-07-2004 10:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-10-2004 2:16 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 58 of 141 (141134)
09-09-2004 12:37 AM


How wrong can historical evidence be?
I bugged my YEC friend about something of this nature. Her response was that our ability to date such things must be flawed. Therefore the people who created that art are either pre or post flood and our understanding of when they lived is wrong. I don't really know how to respond to this line of reasoning especially in front of the much more damning evidence of things like the Egyptian Empire. My response to her was that even if we are wrong about the date ranges of a certain civilization such as Egypt we certainly cannot be wrong enough, in the younger direction in particular, to make Ancient Egypt fit post flood.
This also seems true for the Cycladic art. Given a length of 1200 years one would have to be wrong by quite a large margin to place it either pre or post flood.
Post flood adoption of pre flood culture is just plain silly. For starters, why weren't all these cultural artifacts buried in the massive cataclysm that supposidly created the geologic column? Does stone art float? Even if post flood decendants of Noah wanted to continued other cultural practices how would they have found so many good examples of pre flood culture in the exact same spot right after the worst disaster in world history powerfull enough to rip the continents apart? Why is it when I think of sentences in my head that they run on for almost a whole paragraph?
These and other unanswerable questions coming soon to a forum near you.

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 73 of 141 (141428)
09-10-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Cold Foreign Object
09-10-2004 2:16 PM


WILLOWTREE likes to invent definitions.
WILLOWTREE writes:
It does not matter what definition you stipulate onto the word "myth",
its reportive and emotive meaning define it to be understood as
something that is not true/never happened.
You are actually re defining myth here for YOUR purposes and you accuse me of twisting the definition for mine!?! I got my definition out of the dictionary. Where did you get yours? Was it from your own head? Who is using rhetoric now?
WILLOWTREE writes:
Then when questioned about this convoluted definition and its application to describe evidence which supports a claimed event you simply assert "myth" to mean opposite of what it means.
No I do not "assert" anything. I am using the definition of myth provided by the dictionary. Furthermore, it only means the "opposite" based on your made up definition of myth.
WILLOWTREE writes:
IOW, "myth" means "not true" unless challenged when it suddenly means "could be true".
No. It means that the myth was written to describe "aspects of the natural world" by definition. A myth is only totally based on imagination by YOUR MADE UP definition. "Straight thinkers" don't make up their own definitions for things that are already well defined.
WILLOWTREE writes:
and every ancient to be defective
Not defective. Not neanderthals. Just people who didn't understand what was going on and why. Maybe 1000 years from now people will say, "oh those 20th century folk with their silly understanding of quantum mechanics." Just because we now have the scientific method dosen't make us better than people in the past. It just means we know more about the world because time has passed and humanity has LEARNED THINGS.
WILLOWTREE writes:
Your arrogant attitude which thinks you are the shit of all time and every area of knowledge is filtered and washed of anything which contradicts your narrow naturalist worldview. This is called dogma.
I am sure glad that I have you WILLOWTREE to tell me what I think of myself and to make blank accusations about my dogma. Not only that, I am so happy that you are here to correct our definitions of words so that we can understand the truth. It is also nice to know that you assume that I am a naturalist. Dosen't seem like a naturalist would sign his posts with "God bless" now would he? But anyway, thanks for pigeon holing me based on your speculation just because I am comfortable enough with my Christianity to accept that Genesis is a myth and that God is powerfull enough to use that myth to bring his word to us. Tell me, does a non-literal interpretation of Genesis change its meaning or purpose?
You still haven't addressed or retracted your statement about how all evolutionists argue against anything catastrophic. I gave you some examples of people in this thread who seem that they are at least on the opposite side of the YE camp that seem to believe that catastrophic things happen. You also still claim that I am guilty of rhetoric/misuse of logic and so far have not provided a valid example except for that fact that I use dictionary definitions.
God Bless,

-Nasser

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-10-2004 2:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-10-2004 5:36 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 75 of 141 (141471)
09-10-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Cold Foreign Object
09-10-2004 5:36 PM


This is already way off topic. I appologize to everyone. This will be the last that I bother with WILLOWTREE in this string of posts. It is obvious to me that regardless of what I say I will be misinterpreted and misquoted. WILLOWTREE, honestly, I never claimed to "represent" God. If you want to believe that is what I said to make yourself feel better or superior to me then go ahead. All I was saying is that you assumed things that were not true about me. I am not a naturalist and never said I was. In fact I gave hints to the contrary to the fact that I believe in God by my closing statement of "God Bless". Not to say that naturalists cannot believe in God but it has been my experience that real naturalists generally do not. (notice I said generally) The point is, in this string of posts you have done nothing but assume stuff. You assume that all "Evos" do not believe in catastraphy and that "Evos" are claiming that they are smarter than people from ancient civilization.
You assumed that I was illogical because my statements were contrary to your belief. You assumed a definition of myth that does not coincide with the actual definition. You assumed I was a naturalist. You assumed that I am trying to represent God by the fact that I am calling you on all your assumptions. Comparing me to Hitler does not prove me wrong nor is it a very Christ like thing to do. If you wish to have a real discussion with me then please do not respond to me with attacks on my person or my faith. If that is your only method of adequatly addressing my claims about your assumptions then don't be suprised if I do not give you the time of day.
As for the topic. I would like to get an answer to one of my previous posts. How much in error can our dating of the art styles be? I am trying to argue this point with a friend of mine and her response is simply that "we" must be dating the art wrong and it really is all post flood. While I can imagine that "we" might be able to be in error by a factor of 10s of years it dosen't seem possible that we can be wrong by that much. Certainly not enough to push something like these civilizations into the same time frame as the Roman empire or something. Am I wrong? How do we know our margin for error when dating these things of historic significance?
God Bless,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-10-2004 5:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 09-11-2004 6:33 AM Jazzns has not replied

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