What is Your Worldview?

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Besides, as Contracycle demonstrated over on one of the Israel/Palestine threads you don't have to be religious to believe that terrorism is justified.

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No indeed. But that is at least a clearer and more honest position than calling some violence terrorism, and then doing the same thing and calling it OK. I mean its kinda ironic - in line with Hambre's remarks about HangDawgs avatar - that aerial bombing was the tool of choice in the first half of the last century for dealing with "primitive" populations precisely because it induced such terror.

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Converting everyone to atheism would not eliminate all the other problems of humanity and friction between peoples.

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Quite true. On the other hand, as long as we use an ineffable, invisible, untestable premise for our decisions they simply cannot be reliable. I agree that religion or doctrine is seldom causative of violence; but it provides a rationale, an excuse for violence. After all, violence matters less to theists who believe in life after death; it is my experience that theists generally find violence more acceptable more easily than atheists.

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Jets don't kill people. People kill people.

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Bullshit. If you really believe that, don't use them. Go back to fighting with your bare hands and teeth.

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But I like warriors. I admire more than anything else those who give their all even their life for the freedom of others.

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But Jesus is supposedly great in part becuase he did not kill. Have you not been instructed to turn the other cheek? Did God not command 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'? Are you really a christian, HangDawg, or just pretending to be one?

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You should be glad there are courageous and honorable men flying the aircraft in my avatar picture that so upsets you, because they are there protecting YOUR freedom and prosperity.

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No, they are terrorists and murderous scum. Just yesterday these "heroes" bombed a residential area of Fallujah and killed 9 children. Jets don't kill children, pilots kill children, eh HangDawg?

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No He didn't.

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This in response to whether or not god gave an injunction against killing. Please explain.

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When you figure out what it means to be a Christian, you let me know.

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I know exactly what it means - it means to be a murderous hypocrite.

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And due to their actions you are free to sit there and call them as such.

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Don't be absurd - your murderers have made no-one free, they bring only oppression and terror.

Your political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69I've taken this test about 8 times, I'm always in the lower left. Unsurprising to me, but often suprising to people who buy into the comic-book tale that communism = big government.

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Hangdawg is a loyal Christian who is also a Patriot. He believes that his country, despite its flaws, upholds Christian morality by freeing oppressed people from the shackles of dictators and such.

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Right. But in practice, as is almost always the case, religion supports the government of the day. HangDawgs belief in a non-existant god is much the same phenmonon as his support for a murderous aggressor state due to the delusion that it is "free.

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1) Contracycle, do you see an ideal government as being similar to the book of Acts? Specifically, Acts 2:43-47

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Careful - there is no GOVERNMENT described here; the only institution mentioned is the temple courts. What is being decsribed is the free association of producers engaged in the exchange of their produce. Yet, that is very much the social model I advocate, but I hasten to point this conception is NOT unique to christinaity or the bible; the Ulster cycle of legends, for example, describes the mythical Land of the Young as a place in which "no-one spoke of mine or thine".That is, IMO, free exhcange, the free market of produces, is the autocthonous mode of production of humans, and institutions like religion are used to justify rulership, theft, and expropriation.

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IOW, (and correct me if this is not what you are asking) would I give my life so someone with Contracycle's views could live in a free society? Absolutely.

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I'll take tyou up on that, then. Will you protect me from the US, will you rise up and overthrow the tyrannical regime that rains death from the skie on so many countries? Will you stand with me on the barricades in defence of freedom against rulership, against theft, against the oppression of capitalism and the West?Well?

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By those words above, I assume you believe that America should not have existed or needs to be stopped as a global power. I mean I would certainly be all for de-fanging or even destroying a tyrranical "muderous agressor state". If so, why do YOU not do something about it? Just what are your convictions? Do you have any? Are you prepared give your all, even your life to stand up for what you believe?

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Of course, Dawg - I most certainly do call for the defanging of the USA, and am a member of a organisation that acvtively seeks to overthrow western capitalism and its aggressor states, by violence if necessary.

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...okay, sorry, just had to get that out of my system...
Basically, you're worldview is divorced from reality... eh.. I'm too tired to type anymore. Alright, your worldview sux... there.. that pretty much sums up my opinions on the matter

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Of course it does - becuase you are an ignorant buffoon comfortable beleiving the popular and conventional wisdoms that surround you, unable to think outsiode the box or develop any sort of moral analysis of your own. Hence, the assumptions and ad hominems to which you easily leap, a short hop to the use of violence against me given how "irrational" I must be.

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I hope to go into the Marine Corps and fight for what I believe in and serve the nation that stands for those principles that I believe in.

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I see, so you are not any sort of christian at all. Or at least, only the kind that proves that christianity is a religion of hatred and violence.

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Let's see, you can't kill me (you're a pacifist)

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I've never claimed to be a pacifist, in fact I have argued pacifism is a pathology. But never mind - after all, your position is not based on thinking about the argument - you just believe what you are told to believe.

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I don't see you "rising up to overthrow the tyrranical regime that reigns death on so many countries," or standing on the "barricades of -- [whatever]".

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Baloney - I have fought in demos. But my primary methodology is not violent not because of moral concerns, but becuase of efficiency concerns.Once again we see the alleged christian, the alleged follower of a doctrine of peace and love, casting stones at those who criticise routione state coercion by violence. As IO have argued before, christinaity is mostly about being a Good Citizen, and Dawg, like a Good Citizen, believes what his state tells him without doubt, and actively desires to be a murderer and bullet-catcher for the state. Christianity is a religion of hate and violence - as in fact are ALL the religions of the book. And christians, as I remarked earlier, share one abiding consistent feature: murderous hypocrisy.

(Instrumental)(Switch Channels)
[Alf Razzell:]
"Two things that have haunted me most are the days when I had to
collect the paybooks; and when I left Bill Hubbard in no-man's-land.""I was picked up and taken into their trench. And I'd no sooner taken
two or three steps down the trench when I heard a call, 'Hello Razz,
I'm glad to see you. This is my second night here,' and he said 'I'm
feeling bad,' and it was Bill Hubbard, one of the men we'd trained
in England, one of the original battalion. I had a look at his wound,
rolled him over; I could see it was probably a fatal wound. You could
imagine what pain he was in, he was dripping with sweat; and after
I'd gone about three shellholes, traversed that, had it been...had
there been a path or a road I could have done better. He pummeled
me, 'Put me down, put me down, I'd rather die, I'd rather die, put me
down.' I was hoping he would faint. He said 'I can't go any further,
let me die.' I said 'If I leave you here Bill you won't be found, let's have another go.' He said 'All right then.' And the same thing
happened; he couldn't stand it any more, and I had to leave him
there, in no-man's-land."(Switch channels)(Girl) "I don't mind about the war, that's one of the things I like to watch, if it's a war going on, 'cause then I know if our side's winning, if our side's losing..."(Switch channels)

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Contracycle, I do not know if your loyalty is to a country or to a people or maybe just to an ideology, but I may remind you that if the masses of people from the less affluent countries ever did see America fall apart economically, the result would be more death and more poverty and hunger than ever before!

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Thats just nonsense, phatboy - those states are pouring wrealth into the USA. If the USA disapeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow, the world would be better off. Europe has already replaced the US as the buyer of last resort - Amricas influence is almost exclusively military these days, and that only by having being the most militarisitic of OECD states and spending the greatest proportion of GDP on arms. Further, your commentary on the introduction of capitalism and problems of capitalism et al are straight out of the McCarthy textbooks and I can only recommend you do some real reading.

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War is sometimes though not always a product of misunderstandings and socio/economic differences. Some people just want power and money. The attainment of these things is their primary goal in life. Whatever virtues they held are no longer evident as their all-consuming lust drives them to attack conquer and destroy peaceful peoples. No amount of "trusting" them will change this. It will only open the door for them to freely indulge their lusts by whatever means they deem necessary. This has been the case historically

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It has been, and it is. But Dawg, your patriotism blinds you to the truth: it is America that fights for money, that invades in the name of Mammon, and that is the same state you proclaim you would proudly serve. You are either a hypocrite or a fool.

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I'm a peacelover

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No, you are not. A peacelover does not argue for war - they argue for peace. You are a war-lover.

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So once we accept this, then we can accept that the best way to save life and preserve freedom is to be absolutely prepared for these kinds of wild cards, and then help recovering countries to maintain freedom in order to prevent another tyrranical regime from sprouting up from the fertile soils of a poverty-stricken mal-content people.

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That is exactly like the speech of any Imperialist. People must be conquered and subjefcted in the name of "freedom". Yet more hypocrisy.

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You should talk to some Marines that have come back from Iraq. They know why they are there and they are glad to be there even though it is dangerous and uncomfortable. There is a reason why soldiers volunteer to go back and serve in harm's way for two or three or more tours. They believe in what they are fighting for and see the progress they are making.

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Their personal delusions are irrelevant - whatever moralistic apologetics they offer for being agents of imperialism and occupying powers, the evil of their actions does not go away.

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Well...I never read McCarthy

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Fox News and the History Channel have read it for you, don't worry.

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and I dare say I am not THAT conservative, but you never answered my question....where is your loyalty and why? I am just curious...I do not intend to judge you.

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I don't have loyalty to anything much. States are coercive, religions are lies. I am an atheist and a marxist, and if anything my operational principles are those of Lenin: "distrust the bourgeoisie, control your leaders, and rely on your revolutionary strength".

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What type of reading and education have you had?

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My own.

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So lets say that somehow, the revolution succeeded and the whole world was marxist. What type of a Utopian society do you envision? Do you trust human nature that much?

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I refuse to answer such a loaded question; its off topic anyway. I do not enviusion any form of Utopian society, I envision a pragmatic one. Thats the whole point - to get away from the Utopianism of theistically-based systems and into something arrived at rationally, from a materialist basis.

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You've only partially answered the question. Marxism, as I understand it, is far more concerned with economics than religion. Yes, religion is anathema to it, but how is the free-market system, which is the real enemy of Marxism, derived from theism?

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1 The arrogation of private property, seen both in the gift of the world to Adam to own and to take dominion of, and in the 10 commandments injunction not to covet they neighbours ox.
2 The construction of normative heirarchies possessed of social authority not commensurate with the actual services performed in that role.That is: the economic analysis that capitalism employs is not theistic in its nature, but does include theistic assumptions. Eliminating these theistic assumptions eliminates the bulk of the apparent logic of capitalism.Atheist materialism is inherent to the communist analysis; in fact I go so far as to say it is the first non-theistic economic system yet proposed in human history.

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Well, I assert that having a society devoid of leaders

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Who proposed a system without leaders? Not Lenins statement I quoted, CONTROL your leaders... there must be leaders for them to be subordinated to the mass. So, what are you talking about?

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Human nature sinks the ship every time.

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I know, thats why Capitalism is doomed.Therre are far too many erroneous presumptions in the rest of the post. Phatboy, I don't know what you are talking about: why do you interpret the proposition that people should be free from capitalist heirarchy and coercion as placing them on a spartan diet? I'm saying the capitalist diet isn't good enough and that we can have better - why do you think human nature would NOT want better?

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So why on earth do you think America disappearing would do the world any good?

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For exactly the same reason that the defeat of Fascist Germany made the world a better place.

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America fights for freedom, capitalism, and democracy.

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No - America fights for capitalism against freedom and democracy. That is why it conquored and occupied Iraq.

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Monetary prosperity is a natural product of that in free nations.

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So capitalist propagandists claim, but its rather falsified by the welth of for example Saudi Arabia, which is most certainly not free. Its a cheap-and-easy soundbite for those who want rationalisations.

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I'm a war-lover to the extent that war can provide peace and freedom.

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"Robbery, butchery, rape they misname empire: they make a wasteland and call it peace." - Tacitus

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I recognize that the only way to maintain peace, freedom, and prosperity, is to protect it with a strong military. Its obvious to anyone who has studied history a little that this is the case.

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Actually, I think history comprehensively demonstrates that war is in the service of elites, and is a large scale protection racket run by criminals for criminals.

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When did I say people must be conquered and subjected? Sometimes it is necessary to conquer the tyrranical government that is subjecting people for the benefit of everyone.

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And yet that is always an excuse for the subjugation of a people. That is, the "evil" of Saddam was nominally the cause, but the people of Iraq suffered as proxies for Saddam. Saddam is alive, but the people of Iraq are under the American jackboot. If that is were objective, America would now leave - but that is not Americas objective. Its oil.

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And you think your delusions knocking freedom and capitalism that you dream up under no pressure enjoying peace at home in your free capitalist society in your chair before your personal computer are any more relevant?

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Pay attention; I grew up amidst a revolution and my freinds and acquaintances were casualties and combatants; your privilieged and comfortable distance from the realities of war is what leads you to see it in such moralistic rather than pragmatic terms, as was pointed out above.

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We are not being imperialist in the sense of aquiring territory. If we are being imperialist by spreading freedom and democracy, then I'm for it.

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There is no evidence at all for America spreading democracy; there is a great deal of evidence for America being an imperialist power, namely the vast number of foreign military interventions it carries out. America has a track record for supporting dictatiors - like Saddam - as regional or economic allies. America is an enemy of democracy and freedom around the globe.

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I say again, if American soldiers are the instruments of evil, why don't you go join a "terrorist" group and fight us?!?!?

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I'm already a member of a group that is technically terroirist becuase it does not renounce violence in pursuit of its political objectives. My methodology is demonstration and mass movement; but I will support those who resist American imperialism.

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Okay, so one guy is enslaving a hundred people, and he would rather them die than let them be free. Sometimes he kills a slave or two just because he enjoys it. You think it is "evil" to kill that one guy and let the rest govern themselves freely?

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A) thats a stupid analogy becuase you don;t just kill the one guy - he's still alive remember, over 11000 Iraqis are dead
b) America has NEVER done such a thing and never will, its entirely against the grain of American foreign and economic policy
c) This just indicates again that you are not thinking, just emoting. You are resorting to an abst5ract princioplke instead of the reality of dropping bombs on urban areas, of national pride and resistance.

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I just don't understand how anyone can be so out of touch with reality.

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Ha ha ha - this after giving me a kiddies colouring book version of the occupation of Iraq. Lets look at reality, Dawg - Iraq is occupied, its people are not free, and its assets have been looted by the US. The US managed to spend ALL the money in the UN-oil for food oprogramme, but has only managed to spend 2% of the money voted by congress for reconstruction becuase of "instability". The occupation of Iraq is a ordinary, historically normal, conquest by an Imperial power.As one commmentator at the RNC remarked, first they had the chorus girls singing the marine anthem, with its "from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli" and the very next speaker claimed "we are not an imperialist nation". It would be funny if this serious delusion were not so dangerous to the rest of us.{Fixed 1 quote box - AM}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-08-2004 09:13 AM