WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM

Thats right.The ONLY thing we do is keep our part of the New Covenant which is the gospel/good news ! The good news is that God will accept FAITH in place of the adherence to righteous standard/Mosaic laws.Anderson:What is the gospel ?It is the new way to relate to God via Jesus Christ.That new way is the way of faith.This is WHY the N.T. is called the NEW TESTAMENT. This Colossians text was written IN THE CONTEXT of the GOSPEL, which means the deliverance from these sins will be the POWER of the indwelt Spirit in us which ONLY operates IF we are focusing our effort and energy into acts of faith.The essence of christianity is the power of the indwelt Spirit which miraculously changes us. YOUR lopsided focus on willpower compliance NEVER progresses in gospel faith which enables the Spirit to propel the believer into compliance via a miracle.I see you cannot even remotely understand the heresy of James. This in itself is evidence of your fundementalism.Every N.T. attempt to make us understand the gospel is immediately negated by pursuing the goal of righteous standard compliance apart from faith (the way we started the journey). You seem to have zero ability to understand this difference even though Paul takes various hacks at explaining it in the epistles.The perverted fundie mind is so accustomed to the traditions of code of conduct that the gospel/way of faith gets the shaft. The issue is HOW the righteous code of conduct is to be complied with. IF IT IS NOT ACHIEVED VIA THE WAY OF FAITH THEN THE WILLPOWER COMPLIANCE IS WORKS WHICH THE BIBLE CONDEMNS TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.

Precisely.That Spirit in us WILL change us and free us from the drag of sin IF we focus all of our efforts into acts of faith - gospel faith.For you to not comprehend this means you have never experienced progress in the Spirit, which doesn't surprise me because you obviously do not understand the gospel/NEW testament.Anderson:Christianity is about miracle change and freedom from our sinful natures. Christianity begins with a miracle - the Resurrection of Christ.The same Spirit which raised up Christ is promised to dwell in us IF we fulfill the one and only term of the New Covenant: Faith.We do not become perfect - we become more perfect. We will always be dual natured - a hybrid of flesh and Spirit. BUT the Spirit will DISPLACE our Adamic nature IF we commit to a life of faith. This excerpt of Paul, which you have recounted in the blue box MUST be understood IN CONTEXT.The context is the New Testament.The N.T. is the Gospel.The Gospel is the new way to relate to God.The new way is the way of faith apart from the works of the Law.The self control Paul is speaking about is a fruit of the indwelt Spirit. Paul is saying that he will not let his old nature be the boss. He will perform "self control" as an act of faith, believing that the Spirit will honor his committment and keep changing him.INTENT is all important.IF we perform law or willpower compliance not as an act of faith THEN we are engaging in age-old works of the law. You are dishonest to say you are praying for me.Your quoting of Luke is Sermon on the Mount precepts which ONLY Jesus could fulfill. Nobody can love their enemies except Christ. This is why He said it. Jesus said these things to convince us that we CANNOT do them from the heart as required. He said them as a two option choice of paths to follow:1) Impossible standard of Divine Law.2) Have faith in Christ/gospel of the N.T.This is our choice as taught by Jesus Himself.Imposssible standards of law OR "believe in Him".God crucified the Law Incarnate/Jesus Christ.NOW the only other option is to "believe in Him"/faith to faith (Romans 1:17)All of the Apostles received life changing power from the indwelt Spirit on the day of Pentecost. This miracle change is the product of faith. It is the forever pattern of relationship with God.God will change us miraculously IF we continue in the "apostles doctine" which is the doctrine of faith.Rhetorically speaking, why would God repeat the Old way of works of law in the New Tetsament ?He didn't.The New is the New because of the good news - the way of faith.

This verse IS the Abrahamic Covenant of the righteousness of faith.God, in exchange for faith, will credit righteousness.Notice that it says nothing about "works" or Mosaic law or any crafty synonym like "righteous standard" Paul the Apostle, who is the chosen mouthpiece for God - chosen by Jesus Himself in Acts 9, under the inspiration of the Spirit, in the context of the New Testament, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, quotes the Abrahamic covenant of the righteousness via faith - two separate times in the books of Galatians and Romans.Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews contain the full meaning of the New Testament and its unfolding out of the Old Testament.Jesus picked the brightest hebrew scholar of his time - Paul of Tarsus, to explain the New Covenant.Paul seizes what God told Abraham at least 430 years prior to the existence of Mosaic law, and says this covenant is the gospel - the good news that God will accept FAITH directed at a promise that He has uttered and credit righteousness for doing so. How can anyone misconstrue what Paul is saying here in Galatians ?The Abrahamic covenant, which preceded Moses, cannot be voided by Sinai.THEN WHY DID GOD GIVE MOSAIC LAW ? Paul plainly tells us that Mosaic law was ADDED because sin was already a reality since Adam and Eve's fall. The law is intended to CONVICT us of our guilt and make us flee to our deliverer: Jesus Christ.Mosaic law is a "schoolmaster": Which has the connotation of a harsh taskmaster that cruelly teaches us that we cannot live up to its standard. That is its ONLY purpose - to bring us to Christ and get delivered from its unbending terror.The law is good but it cannot help us because it is an inflexible standard of conduct that requires death if it is not adhered to.Paul also adds the MAJOR insult, informing us, that after thousands of years, the law was actually delivered to Moses BY ANGELS and not God Himself.God didn't think the law was worthy of His personal attention so He informs us via Paul that angels actually gave it to Moses, unlike the Abrahamic covenant, which God Himself made with Abraham.Now the Fundementalist mind would CANCEL all this out by giving lopsided attention to the lists of sins/(righteous standard as they call it) that are contained in the New Testament.These lists of sins/righteous standards are LISTED IN THE CONTEXT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.This means they are the fruit of the Spirit in us, which said indwelt Spirit ONLY resides in us to make us comply miraculously IF we are directing all of our energy and focus INTO the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith.If we do as the Fundies would - they pursue the righteous standards on their own as proof of their so called conversion - thus this disciplined compliance via willpower is just age old law keeping and NOT the term of faith in the Abrahamic covenant.I am not arguing that we can sin or remain in sin.I am explaining the Gospel/way of faith/Abrahamic covenant WHICH is the God ordained method to get delivered from sin, which said method has been totally corrupted by Fundementalists.Here is the ONLY term/CHOICE of the New Testament/Covenant as evidenced from scripture:The impossible requirements of the Sermon on the Mount: Notice in the last verse there that works do not save.The above blue boxed verses is an impossible Divine standard - it is intended to only be kept by the Law Incarnate: Jesus Christ. It is intended to convict and MAKE YOU SEE YOUR NEED FOR THE ONLY OTHER OPTION CALLED THE GOSPEL/WAY OF FAITH TO RELATE TO GOD/CHRIST.That only other option is the Abrahamic covenant of faith - and here it is - right from Matthew. This is just from Matthew, add the other three gospels and the evidence is voluminous: Faith is the only term of the New Covenant.In the gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly says "he who BELIEVES in Him"
This is the choice: Faith or law and its penalty of death.The New covenant is the gospel which means "good news" and the good news is the release from the requirements of law to please God !The choice is the impossible standard of law as defined by Jesus OR the way of faith.IF we pursue faith then we are under grace and the law and its requirements are void to us.Fundementalist coruption ignores all of this and pursues their version of the righteous standard apart from the gospel and misrepresent Christ.Faith and only faith gets the Spirit which miraculously changes us.

Finally, after 143 pages of debate you admit what I have said from page 1:Works is the way you follow Christ.But that word "works" is so well defined is scripture to NOT SAVE that you substitute a synonym called "righteous standard".You really do not believe that works do not save or maintain your standing with God.It doesn't matter how clear the Bible says it your fundie mind cannot fathom what I or the N.T. is saying.The ONLY purpose of the Sermon on the Mount was to CONVICT and SHOW you that it is a Divine standard that cannot be lived.Jesus clearly established that the VERY THOUGHT counted as if you did the sin in God's eyes - but you obviously do not believe what Christ said.Jesus preached the Sermon to frighten us into doing the ONE thing we can do: HAVE FAITH.The Sermon on the Mount is a standard that only Jesus could do. It was not intended as a goal of "will worship".Your twisted understanding has everyone pursuing the precepts to the best of their ability - pure age-old O.T. works.The reason WHY the New Testament is called the NEW Testament is because God will release us from the works of the law IF we relate to Him strictly by faith. When faith is practiced His Spirit can indwell and cause us to walk in newness of life via miracle AND THEN the righteous precepts of the Sermon on the Mount will be accomplished in us via miracle.You just don't understand the gospel - it means "good news" the good news which I just describe.All you can do is focus on the law of Moses and its presence in the N.T. and pursue it like the generations beforehand.I can tell you and Buzsaw have not a clue about what I am talking about as the scripture says in Isaiah and repeated in the N.T. that God will blind His people with His word so that they will not understand as a penalty for voiding His word via their traditions.Your Mosaic traditions cancel the gospel of faith alone and the inability to understand what I am talking about proves the Isaiah curse is on you just like it came upon that generation in Isaiah's day who scoffed at such an idea until the Assyrians came stripped and them naked, fastened fish hooks in their lips, connected them to all one string and marched them off into bondage.That is the context when Jesus repeats that Isaiah curse of "seeing and hearing but not understanding".You hear the word of God and you THINK you understand but in reality you do not. The fact that you defend works proves you are a deceived fundie who just doesn't get it.Anderson:You totally voided everything I argued in the preceding post. Faith and faith alone is the only term on our side of the New Covenant.How do you love an invisible God ?If you love God then you want to please Him.Hebrews 11:6 says ONLY FAITH pleases God.Therefore, if you are acting in faith - you are at the same time LOVING God and fulfilling the First Commandment.You just do not believe that the Bible means what it says.

Context: New Testament.The NEW testament is the gospel.gospel: good news.good news: God will now accept FAITH in place of the impossible works of the law/righteous standard as the ONLY way to relate to Him and His Son.Notice in this context that Jesus equates "wonderful works" to be the "work of iniquity".These people go to hell.Fundementalists really don't believe that adherence to law has nothing to do with maintaining standing with God."but we cannot sin"Who said we can ?The point God wants to get across is that the terror of sin and the standard which convicts us of sin (law) is intended to drive us to the gospel (already defined) to be the single method of relationship with God.When the gospel/way of faith is practiced with all of ones energy THEN God promises to miraculously deliver us from the power of sin.

All evangelical christianity agrees "works don't save"Reformation message: "Faith Alone"Why would God repeat the Old Testament in the New ?He didn't.The blue box passage is the Great White Throne Judgement Seat of Christ."white" is the color of righteousness - perfect righteousness of Christ.This is the STANDARD by which every person who appears here will be judged by: The perfection of Christ's perfect righteousness.The passage SAYS these people will be judged "according to their works".The Bible is clear: Works don't save.Two verses later: IF you appear at the Great White Throne YOUR works will fall short of the perfect righteousness of Christ and the 15th verse is your lot.Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.Only gospel faith saves.

double post - content deletedThis message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 07:01 PM

double post - content deletedThis message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 07:00 PM

sorry double post - content deletedThis message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 06:59 PM

I argue scripture which evidently cut you to the heart and you respond with rabid evangelical hatred.Seems like your politically correct social nonsense of supposedly hating nobody has exceptions.My Bible arguments invokes you to stray off topic and call Dr. Scott a bigot - you are boiling and ranting and seeking to hurt.They called Jesus a "winebibber and a glutton" seems like Dr. Scott is in good company.Your slander of we evangelicals proves we are right.

Hi Mike:Glad to see you. Sorry Mike that is not what the verses say.In context - Jesus meant what He said and said what He meant.You just don't want accept that works have nothing to do with standing with God. Yes it does - thats exactly what Jesus said.The context has persons rhetorically asking Jesus "have we not done" thus and such in your name ?Jesus responds "I never knew you"There is your key.All those wonderful works (which He admits are wonderful) BUT they were performed while estranged from Christ.Therefore, the wonderful works are "works of iniquity" BECAUSE they were done APART from Christ.The only way you obtain Christ and His benefits is FAITH apart from the works of the law. This is basic christianity 101.When we act in faith and get God to manifest His miracle power in us (born-again-ness) THEN this "new life" of the Spirit in us will inevitably result in good works.IF we perform works with the INTENT of maintaining standing with God then like Paul says "Christ will profit you nothing.....if righteousness comes by works of the law then Christ died in vain" [Galatians]IF we pour ALL of our energy into gospel faith THEN this unleashes the Spirit to propel us to walk pleasing to God. And the fruit of the Spirit only manifests when faith is practiced upon the promises of God. Me too.This is called "besetting sin" the one we do over and over and makes a mockery of ourselves and God.There is NO POWER in knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong TO DO THE GOOD.We know what is right BUT our inherited Adamic natures get the best of us.God knows this.The message of the N.T. is that God will never let us go IF we trust Him by faith."a smoking flax He will not quench" So was Paul's in Romans 7:"who shall deliver me from the body of this death ?"The next verse answers the question: Jesus Christ.And the context for Romans 8 is the Spirit and the preceding 7 chapters which established that FAITH and FAITH alone justifies and obtains the delivering agent: the Spirit.

What brought this on ?What did I say to evoke this ?Please cut and paste and justify this rant.

Hi Mike: The OP clearly explains from scripture how the Fundementalists have voided THE ONLY way to relate to God and escape the looming judgement of hell.The OP clearly shows that the Holy Spirit through Paul likened the established church of his day (the church at Jerusalem/pastored by James the epistle writer) to be the symbolic type of Ishmael who persecuted Isaac (type of the true church who walks by faith) AND AS ABRAHAM KICKED HAGAR AND ISHMAEL OUT we are to do the same with those who void the gospel/way of faith.The word of God is eternal - thats what all evangelicals believe.This means the established church at Jerusalem = the established church today - the Fundementalists - who do the exact same thing and preach works as the way you walk with Christ as opposed to the GOSPEL way of faith.Read Galatians 4/OP the argument is from Paul who speaks for God.WE ARE TO "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON"Dr. Scott simply translates that in modern street language to mean:"throw the mother fuckers out"BECAUSE that IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD IS SAYING SHOULD BE DONE TO THOSE WHO VOID THE GOSPEL.The argument has been there in Galatians for 2000 years.I urge you to carefully read the OP and the context of the conclusion. The Matthew 7 verses we are discussing clearly has Jesus equating the "wonderful works" (which He admits) to be "works of iniquity" BECAUSE He "never knew them".Thats what it says.The context of Matthew 7 is the New Testament.The NEW testament replaces the Old.The N.T. is the gospel/way of faith to relate to God as opposed to the works of the O.T.The ONLY way to know Christ is via the New way.The persons in Matthew 7 are those who will stand before the White Throne Judgement Seat in Rev.20 and say that exact question in response to learning that they are going to hell - "have we not done" all these wonderful works ?Jesus RESPONDS: "I never knew you"Which THOSE works were evil because they were done APART from Him.They were works done mindlessly under the belief that the performance of such is the way you walk and please God.This entire scenario perfectly teaches that ONLY faith alone obtains relationship with Christ and subsequent to that results in "knowing Christ" and the way of relating (faith) which THEN inevitably will produce the Spirit in us doing the good works because of knowledge of sins forgiven.This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-05-2004 05:14 PM

Sorry Anderson, I owe you some responses.They are forthcoming.

Hi DarkStar:Your link-site appears to be Jewish rant against Paul. Looks like this site is a continuation of Jewish mobs in the N.T. who sought to kill Paul. Because of obvious hatred of Paul - why would you trust the sites gross theological verse heresies ?Why would anyone trust Jewish commentary on Christian theology which they reject ?Paul was Saul the christian killer.His conversion on the Damascus Road in Acts 9 is famous.Jews despise Paul for obvious reasons. The point is that JESUS chose Paul - Acts 9 confirms this.This means Paul speaks for Jesus the risen Saviour.Paul wrote two thirds of the N.T./canon = CLAIMED eternal word of God.Paul's message is from Jesus - FAITH and FAITH alone attaches us to Christ.Jews remain under the belief that the Messiah is yet to come, thus they are still Old Testament works of law = the way God is pleased.Paul, speaking for Jesus in the N.T., reports the exact opposite to be true.The only issue is: Is Jesus the Messiah - Resurrected Christ ?IF that is true then Paul speaks for God/Jesus.YOU must determine if Jesus is your God or not.IF works of the law is the way to please God THEN what is to stop any wise and clever heathen from taking out an insurance policy by fulfilling the prescribed amount of works and making it in ?IF you diligently conform to Hebrews 11:6 while looking to Jesus He will reveal Himself incontrovertible to you.Faith has a promised end result = manifestation, when this happens Paul will be confirmed correct.The Pyramid confirms the Resurrection - not a matter of opinion.