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Author Topic:   How accurate is the bible?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 62 (121768)
07-04-2004 2:47 AM


i have a related question. i thought about making a thread earlier, but it's close enough to this thread, so i'll post it here.
is any portion of the bible historically accurate, and if so, what?
it's know that occasionally large events in bible were based on real-life events, but often out of context, and with a hebrew moralistic spin, placed into the "history" of the people with no regard to accuracy. an example of such would be soddom and gomorrah, which appear to be based on two cities somewhat recently found by archaeologists, only they were destroyed relatively slowly (compared to fire and brimstone) by war, combined with a classic hospitality fable.
most scholars would agree parts of the bible like this cannot be taken as true historical accounts.
that rules out pretty much all of genesis. and judging from the exodus discussion (and previous discussions elsewhere) i'd have to say that probably includes the exodus to abotu the arraival in jerusalem. parts of it may have happened, but under different circumstances. any real history was exagerated on, distorted, etc.
what about, say, judges onward? how historically accurate is that? chronicles?
is there any point at which the bible is literal history, or matches execptionallyt well with the archaeological record?

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2004 11:58 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 35 of 62 (121811)
07-04-2004 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by almeyda
07-04-2004 7:00 AM


Adam & Eve, Noah - mythical? The only reason there is no outside record of this is because it was so long ago. Before the flood!. Luckily God wrote down the beginning of the human race in Genesis.
now there's an educated opinion. your faith in a book known to be historically inaccurate is hardly a representation of it's historical accuracy. it's nice that you believe it, but the question is: did it happen? and did the people who wrote it even believe it happened? or is it abstract allegory? (and god didn't write the bible)
This goes also for Noah who played a huge part in the repopulation of mankind after the flood.
the epic of gilgamesh, a babylonian epic poem, predates genesis by about a thousand years and contains a flood story much like noah's. the hebrews lived in babylon around the earliest dates we have for genesis. 2+2=?
Abraham - mythical?. The forefather of both the Jews and the Arabs, are you sure?. Seems like a denial of history in order to not believe in the Bible.
but the question is if there is any record of him?
Joshua - The successor of Moses. The New Testament mentions his leading the Israelites into the promised land (Acts 7:45). Acts of course being the history of the early church.
uhh, the book of joshua would be better evidence of his existance than something written at least a thousand years after his death.
David - David was the second and greatest king of Israel (1010-970BC). Whose dynasty ruled over Judah for over four hundred years.
ding ding! the only one we have ANY independ evidence of! and it's rather minimal, just a vague reference on a stone to someone being of the family of david, dating around the time he was said to rule israel.
Solomon - Solomon was the third and last king of united Israel, and reigned for 40years (970-930BC). He wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Solomon, Psalms 72 & 127 and over one thousand songs. Very much a man of history.
attributed authorship does not equate to existance. besides, i thought god wrote the bible? or is that just genesis?
Iliad by Homer is second with just 643 manuscripts that still survive. To deny the historicity of the NT is to throw away all classical antiquity as no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically.
no one is claiming that achilles really existed. in fact, for years, no one even claimed that the trojan war really happened, or that TROY even existed. until they found it, destroyed by war. archaeological evidence suggests that it didn't happen the same way as homer recorded, and that it was not one long war of ten years that lead to its downfall, but a bunch of little ones that eventually wore away enough defenses.
the situation is similar with the bible. places and trace evidence has been found, but suggest things happened a little differently. sometimes, a lot differently. however, there is a lot more evidence for the trojan wars than say, the hebrew exodus.
if the bible is a literal account, well, the god had another, achilles, who was impervious to attack and could not be killed, except with an arrow to the heel.
The number of manuscripts, of early translations, and of quotations from it from the oldest writers of the church is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world.
this is a mistaken viewm, common to christians. the new testament is not ONE book, but about 5 (luke and acts were probably one book), and a collection of letters that make no historical claims. luke states in the opening that it is an attempt to reconcile the many gospels floating around.
we've found probably about three times the number of gospel accounts contained in the nt, some of them fragments. the mroe interesting ones, you may have heard of: thomas and magdalene. a staggering realization will come to you if you read them carefully. none of the gospels line up perfectly. many are copied off the same source. some, are just really, really out there. with good reading skills and a little bit of thought, it's quite obvious the gospels were written as propaganda devices, not historical records. i mean, just read them, and think about it for a second.
The Bible contains history like no other. From the beginning of the humanrace all the way to Jesus and early church history.
flavius josephus is far more reputable. well, except for the parts forged by christians. his work is what a history should look like. the bible looks like a tradition, not a factual account.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by almeyda, posted 07-04-2004 7:00 AM almeyda has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 36 of 62 (121813)
07-04-2004 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by almeyda
07-04-2004 7:19 AM


Re: More circular reasoning.
So the manuscripts of other ancient texts arent circular? Why because its some guy not a religion?.
if "some guy" has multiple confriming outside texts, no, it's not circular at all. and "outside" means they recorded it independently, not copied the source in question.
no one is claiming the epic of gilgamesh or the iliad happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by almeyda, posted 07-04-2004 7:19 AM almeyda has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 62 (121915)
07-04-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by PaulK
07-04-2004 11:58 AM


Briefly, a good rule of thumb is the later chronologically the less unreliable
excluding the new testament.
Everything before Judges is close to worthless as a reliable historical source.
i kind of figured the line would be around there somewhere. i used to draw it between genesis and exodus, but after reading some on the matter...

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 62 (123900)
07-12-2004 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
07-12-2004 3:39 AM


Re: More circular reasoning.
In the Septuagint, the Torah was translated into Greek around 400 B.C. The Dead Sea Scrolls were from about 250 B.C. to after the time of Christ, and we can compare them with our Bibles today.
yeah, i'm doing that, and i'm missing at least a dozen whole books.
for instance, where'd the book of enoch go?
the documents that match biblical documents match well, but there are little changes here and there. but this is no suprise. no one in the archaeological world was at all impressed that the essenes could copy documents with reasonable precision. they were impressed with the other things they found, that didn't seem to make the cut for the bible.
Aramaic Targums are translations made around the time of Jesus
a good deal before, actually. and they vary a lot. some, uhh, even have a different name for god.
Archaeology shows the Bible Jesus knew was preserved.
this is heavily debatable. there are elements of jesus's teachings that seem drawn from earlier, non-biblical texts. depending on which jesus you believe in. the gnostic jesus's bible certainly wasn't preserved at all.
"Biblical archaeology's greatest significance is that it has corroborated many historical records in the Bible. Biblical archaeology has failed to deter people who seek to validate religious concepts by archaeological finds. These people should not confuse fact with faith, history with tradition, or science with religion."
not sure exactly what he's saying, but you shouldn't confuse faith with history. many events can't be corroborated at all -- like the exodus -- and the ones that can seem really, really different in reality. (sodom and gamorah destroyed by war).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 07-12-2004 3:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 62 (123923)
07-12-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
07-12-2004 10:46 AM


Re: More circular reasoning.
here's a good chunk of various apocryphal literature: The Wesley Center Online: 404 Page Not Found
the site has breif summaries, and either links to or text of almost all of the extra-biblical goodies.
Gospel of Peter. (You'd think his would get included since he is the "Rock on which the Church is founded")
well, it's not like peter wrote it or anything. but it was attributed to him for a reason, and since his successor was stoned to death, ending the christian church in jerusalem, there's probably a good explaination of why this book didn't make it. they, uhh, just didn't fit with the majority view. so they were dubbed heretical, and left out.
The Story of Adam and Eve.
this one's a neat one. especially since the devil tricking eve is a recurrent theme. there's also the apocalypse of adam, the apocalypse of moses, jubilees, and a few other books that cover post-fall adam.
Book of Enoch.
enoch actually appears to be the origin of the fallen angel stories. it talks about the sons of god (angels) in genesis 6, and tell how they got a bunch of human females pregnant, and they gave birth to like 200 giants to started to devastate the earth. azazel ("the scapegoat") teaches men to wage war. since earth kind of got out of hand, god floods the earth, and casts azazel and co into a pit to be trapped until the end of the world (could be the beast in revelation, at least symbolically).
i wonder why the fundamentalists kind of downplay the "giants running rampant" bit of the flood story? anyhow, for what i've heard, the book sounds like it fits very well into the bible.
anyhow, i think someone should start an apocrypha and pseudepigrapha thread. this stuff can be interesting.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-12-2004 10:11 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 10:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 11:22 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 47 of 62 (123928)
07-12-2004 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
07-12-2004 11:22 AM


Re: More circular reasoning.
there are actually quite a few of the heresies that might even be considered mainstream theology today.
this was the topic i was thinking about, actually. certain stories seem far too familiar -- and they're not in the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 11:22 AM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 48 of 62 (123939)
07-12-2004 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
07-12-2004 11:22 AM


Re: More circular reasoning.
alrighty, a new thread in the proposed topics section. http://EvC Forum: Information -->EvC Forum: Information
moved to Bible Accuracy and Inerrancy
EvC Forum: apocryphal stories and mainstream theology - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 07-12-2004 11:33 AM

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 Message 46 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 11:22 AM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 57 of 62 (125240)
07-17-2004 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
07-17-2004 5:38 AM


Re: Not very accurate
i started a discussion on apocyrphal literature and mainstream theology a little while aog, and it's not getting much attention. perhpas you'd be interested?

This message is a reply to:
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