If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?

Thanks for bringing this back on topic.I concur wholeheartedly regarding the idea of the bible as

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a guide to man's relationship with man {do you mean God?}, the world he lives in and the belief (and that is all that it is) of a life everlasting.

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This makes it extremely valuable from the perspective of social sciences.As for hard science; I hesitate to say it is worthless, perhaps it has as much value as any relic that purports to demonstrate man's understanding of the natural world at the time it was written. It certainly has no value as a scientific 'lie detector'- validating or invalidating scientific discoveries we have made through scientific method.Historically I think it is as valuable as the Soviet Propaganda films are today. Some things may be historically accurate although slanted for the benefit of dogma, while others are completely erroneous for the same reason.

My goodness, man. The Iliad is supposed to be the first instance of use of the Greek Alphabet. Moreover, the centuries-old story that inspired the writer was sung by Homer (a blind and illiterate minstrel) with such fervent passion and poetry that it gave rise to an entire friggin' classic style and writing system! "No more substance that the Iliad" indeed.Peace. Ab.

is, IMHO, a very direct, pesonal and individual friendship. It really is far closer to that of a child with a wise parent than anything else.While the Bible can certainly be used as part of establishing that relationship, I think the awe and understanding that comes from observing the greater record GOD left us, the Universe we live in, plays and equal, perhaps even greater, part.I hope that I did not say that the Bible is worthless as Science Text. If so, I apologize. What I have tried to say that it is certainly valuable just like understanding other early theories that attempted to explain the world and all that is in it. The Ptolemaic Universe served people well for many years. It could be used to make valuable predictions and those predictions later were bourne out.But, like the Ptolemaic Universe, later observations showed that it was simply incorrect. Then, as with any scientific theory, once falsified, had to be abandoned. IMHO, much of the Science in the Bible is similar. The Creation Theory simply does not stand up to observations. The Flood simply does not stand up to observation. The ARK simply does not stand up to observation.They need to be abandoned as Scientific theories.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jar writes: No, what you meant was perfectly clear. I was trying to convey that I did not find much value in the bible pertaining to hard science. I almost wrote "the bible has no scientific value," but then I hesitated.

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If we cant trust the Bible in absolutely everything it says then we cannot trust it in anything it says.

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How logical is this? Have you ever told a lie? I have to assume the answer is yes, therefore no one can ever trust anything that you say. I think jar explained the bible to best, in that it is a map. If you base your faith on a BOOK, then the book is your God.

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I am not perfect. I am not holy. I did not create the world. God has taught us that we can trust him in everything he says, all his words are pure and true, he is the only God. If indeed he lied in all this then i will not worship a false and lying God. If God lied then indeed Jar is correct and this book is just another map. Not an absolute authority or God only true words. (John 17:3,John 14:6,Proverbs 8:5-11,Isaiah 48:3-6). If there is no absolute true God. Then i would definately go back to being an athiest & evolutionist. I will not pick and take from every religion available naively thinking they are all the same or the best bits from all will get me to heaven.. Bizzar bizzar???...This message has been edited by almeyda, 05-29-2004 12:02 AM

Very good Almeyda, you are on the path to becoming a Christian.Christianity is not the Bible.***************Added all below this point*********In the post above, you said that is the Bible does not turn out to be literally true, then GOD is lying and you will go back to being an atheist.If you really have faith in GOD and in the message that is transmitted by the Bible, then it should not matter to you whether the Bible is literally true or not. The Bible is but a book. It is little more than a Anthology, a collection of smatterings of writings gathered by a team of thousands of editors over thousands of years. It is a theological text designed to teach how to live with yourself and others, the world around you and your GOD.But it is not GOD.It is ONE of two records left by GOD for you to study. The other, the one far less likely to be influenced by political whim or favor, is the world as it exists around you.Before you decide that GOD is lying, it might be good to examine what GOD, not man, wrote.Go to a planetarium. Look through the tellescope. You will see world that are far more than 6000 years away. God has left us direct evidence of how old the universe is, and far more reliable evidence than the Bible.Really examine the fossil record. Don't just surf, go to museums and search for some fossils yourself. Find a deep canyon and examine the strata yourself. Study genetics and really look at what we can learn from DNA.GOD has left you all the information, all the data needed to make up your own mind. It is up to you though to read it.This message has been edited by jar, 05-29-2004 12:38 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Then i would definately go back to being an athiest & evolutionist.

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Why do you think there is a dichotomy here?The vast majority of Christian denominations have no problem at all with scientific findings, including Biology, Geology, Paleontology, Physics, Genetics, and all the other sciences you have rejected in favor of the Bible you worship.

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I will not pick and take from every religion available naively thinking they are all the same or the best bits from all will get me to heaven.

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Is the only reason you follow your stripe of Christianity is because of the reward you want to receive at the end?

[qs]If indeed he lied in all this then i will not worship a false and lying God.[qs] But dude, the point that I'm making is that the bible is a book, NOT God. If I tell you a brief testimony or history of my ilfe, and you accidently misquote me, get a date wrong or mispell a word of two, does that mean that I do not exist? Does that mean that I am a liar? No, the writing made the mistake, not me. The two (athiest & evolutionist) are not one and the same, and one is not required in order to believe in the other. Just a nitpick. This sounds like a swipe, and if it is, I do not take offense. I do not pick and choose from whatever religion that I come across. My decision was not arbituary, nor was I forced to believe that way I do. I came to a belief in God in spite of the bible, not because of it.Back on topic, IMHO, if you deep six your faith just because a part in a book is proven to be false, then I submit that your faith was weak to begin with.

Why would my faith be weak if i discard it if its false?. Were talking about a God here. A creator. "I am that i am" - Exodus 3:14, The one who made the entire galaxy. His written words for me to study and learn. Why would i continue to believe a myth filled with lies and errors?. Because Jesus died for me? Well i cant be sure about that now since Genesis is false, moreover Jesus says to believe in all Gods word, and mentions the beginng of Genesis also, Genesis is false therefore Jesus is a liar, but God says Jesus was perfect. More lies! Man this is a false God i refuse to believe in a lie. Because of its beautiful literature? Or because its great moral teachings?. Ohh i love my neighbour yes i do. Hell no. I believe it all because its Gods true words. And i need to be able to trust him in everything he says. This is why i joined this religion. Not because i need purpose in my life. F*ck all that. I found the truth and thats what matters to me. If i can trust God with everything i have. Then i can trust God to give me the true account of origins. I can believe in Jesus. And i can be sure i will be forgiven and hopefully allowed in Gods kindgom. And i got this truth by discovering the evidence for creation and against evolution.

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And i can be sure i will be forgiven and hopefully allowed in Gods kindgom. And i got this truth by discovering the evidence for creation and against evolution.

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You say you know of a great deal of evidence in support for Creationism.You also say that you know of a great deal of evidence that disproves evolution.You say that all of this evidence is how you found the "Truth" (TM).This must mean that you have studied and understand both the evidence for Creationism and for Evolution, right? You must have done a lot of reading and maybe taken an Introduction to Biology course at the local university or community college, right?My point is, you wouldn't have rejected all of modern Biology, Genetics, Paleontology, and Geology, etc. unless you understood a great deal of the basic tenets of each field of science, am I correct?...because an intellectually honest person wouldn't reject 200 years of scientific advancement out of ignorance, would they?Considering that you have surely done all of your homework and research, so as to come to an intelligent, well-reasoned, informed descision, I find it very strange that you don't ever seem to make any arguments in your own words. It almost seems to me that you didn't do all of the study and research on evolution et. al. before you rejected those 200 years of scientific discovery.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-30-2004 09:05 AM

Two points.One, Genesis is a myth, that does not tell an accurate story about the cration of the Universe and the Earth and life. This does not mean that it is false.Second, yes, you can't be sure. Life is unsure. There's no guarantee that you will ever be sure. Get over it.

It's strange, but there are many of us that do not believe Jesus was divine, and many of us that do not believe in a God at all. Yet, we somehow find the ability to 'love our neighbor'. How can that be if the God of the Christian bible is no in us?
However, if you need the bible to keep you in line morally, by all means, keep reading and learning. What the hell? I think you may want to re-evaluate WHY you believe, what you believe. Besides, you really don't know that 'it' is the truth; you believe on faith, the same as I, and nothing more. Otherwise, you, I and every other believer would be able to present solid evidence of God; we cannot do that, so far as I have seen. I wouldn't even attempt it. I'm of the opinion that everyone finds their own way. What evidence? And what does evolution have to do with God's existence? How can I believe in God and evolution? The two are seperate and neither one affects the other. I believe in the Theory of Relativity (although I won't pretend that I grasp the majority of it) and that doesn't affect my faith, either. I cannot see how evolution excludes God.

So you believe in God and evolution do you?. Ok well since no supernaturalism exists, only naturalism. And since the world has evolved by natural processes. How does God fit into this picture?. I hope you arent going to say that God invented the first cell so life can evolve. No supernaturalism exists in a evolutionary naturalist world.

almeyda, where do you get that the scientific method says "no supernaturalism exists...?"It says that if it isn't natural then science can not touch it. How do you do experiments on something that is outside of nature (supernatural)?No where does it say that supernaturalism does not exist...it just says that science does not deal with it.This message has been edited by Asgara, 05-30-2004 11:01 PM

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

But which God is he basing his belief on?. Evolution contradicts Genesis. There is no compromise unless on your own behalf. They contradict each other and can only be interpreted by your own views. So again which God. And if the God of the Bible then you have compromised and reinterpreted Gods words destroying your "holy book" as a absolute authority and only another guide of morals, you also leave yourself open to all other ideas of the world and not strictly Gods as he commands do not worship false Gods or doctrines which are not on Christ. And if its some other God you believe in then where are your getting his information from what religion textbook or belief. And if your God says in the beginning life evolved by me. Then my friend you are ok by me. Its your belief and thats that.