Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

In "real life", surrender is usually the lesser of two evils. You can surrender or you can go out in a blaze of glory and futility.If you don't acquiesce to the chain of command, if you don't do what's "right", the wheels might come off as ICANT has suggested. But surrender is the last resort, not the first step.

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In 'Christianity' you already know that following your own way is futile. The first step to success is understanding that you will ultimately have to surrender to God. If you want it to be the last resort, go ahead.

I don't "know" any such thing. In Christian dogma that might fly, but not in "real-ife Christianity".Whatever happened to free will? Why would God give us free will if He wanted us to give it back? Whether or not God wants us to surrender is the question here, not the answer. The first step to success in understanding is not jumping to your pet conclusion. Sorry, darlin'. Does not compute. Surrender is the last resort.Surrender is for the one who's out of ammunition, not the one whose guns are still blazing.

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Only by having it could we voluntarily submit to Him to begin with. Otherwise we would be creatures of genetics and instinct...without any ability to choose anything. Birds don't choose to fly south each year, ya know.

That doesn't answer the question.What's so special about "voluntary" submission as opposed to I'll-fry-you-for-eternity-if-you-don't submission?If God has "expectations" about what we do with our free will, what's free about it?

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So we could give it back.Consider that free will is no more than intelligence. We are intelligent enough to have choices, not intelligent enough to always make the best choice. God can't take away our intelligence, but He can ask us to let Him guide our choices. The question is whether or not my pet conclusion is Biblical. Since we are talking about the Bible here, there is no reason to get up in arms about whether one conclusion is 'true' in any other arena. Guns schmuns. Make this into an analogy that is pertinent to religion. What are the guns of the non-surrendered religious? Free will? Is there any indication that God DID say to do whatever the heck we want with it?

Letting Him guide our choices is not surrender. If it was, you could have backed it up Biblically. So far, all I've seen is a misunderstanding of the word "surrender". That's not the question. If free will is a given, then those of you who advocate surrender are obliged to show how free will is not free will.Edited by Ringo, : Spellinge.

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I think it is.

It comes down to "owning" our choices again. If we make a choice because that's what He wants, it isn't really our "own" choice.Free will is a gift that God gives us. If we don't make use of it, if we leave it nicely wrapped under the Christmas tree, we are diminishing the value of the gift.He might guide us, help us get the most enjoyment out of it. But He doesn't want us to give it back or to leave it unused.

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God has a plan for your life if you seek His will in your life and find it everything is just better. I make no major decisions without consulting God. Sometimes I have to wait awhile but if I wait on Him He will lead in the right direction.Sometimes I haven't listened and I still made a good decision but most of the time it's like the train wreck, a bad decision. But even when I don't listen it does not affect our Father son relationship.

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Sometimes I have to wait awhile but if I wait on Him He will lead in the right direction.

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How does that leading manifest itself? Memo, neon lights, bread crumbs, what?
Can you give a simple example?

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Sometimes I haven't listened and I still made a good decision but most of the time it's like the train wreck, a bad decision. But even when I don't listen it does not affect our Father son relationship.

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A loving father-son/daughter relationship doesn't go along with the general usage of the word surrender (give up) especially when the children are adults.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Well, if it is required to choose one thing, it isn't much of a choice is it? You can choose to surrender. Once you have, you essentially give up control. It isn't taken from you, you give it up.

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We're only talking about one thing, whether God or Jesus said they require people to give up control of their lives.You've shown that they do want us to follow their commands, but not that they require surrender or giving up control of our lives.Any group you join, requires that you follow their rules. God doesn't expect any less.What control do you feel you have given up?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

If you follow someone else's rules you have given up control. You do not, any longer, get to make up your own. What control have I given up? The freedom to do whatever I want even if it doesn't hurt anyone. The freedom to go wherever I want, to engage in certain sexual activities, to swing, to read porn, etc, etc, etc. I do not even have the freedom to think about whatever I want!The only reason why this is a silly argument is because it is all willing surrender. There is no God with a sword and handcuffs. There never is a God who 'controls' a person. Therefore to say we give control to God is not explainable in the same terms as with a physical power.

Right. How is choosing to follow God by doing the right thing, less of an exercise of free will?

We exercise free will by choosing to do the right thing on a case by case basis. There is no "giving up of control" involved. We are in control in each situation. It's just that we let God's principles guide us in each decision.A "surrender" only has meaning if it's accepted - but God doesn't accept your surrender even if you offer it. You are still responsible for your actions. You are in control, whether you try to pass the buck or not.

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