God lurks among us...at EVC

The Holy Spirit is seen (by faith alone adherants) in NT terms as being given to those who haved been saved by faith. There is no biblical warrant for universal receipt thereof.There is a thread running at the mo which assumes you hold to the salvation by faith alone position. I *-ed you as such a one but now I'm not so sure. Should I remove you from that category?(before Lfen gets on my case...)This message has been edited by iano, 24-Apr-2006 01:03 AM

Sorry rR. I missed your post in the the maelstrom. I won't answer it however - not that you haven't interesting things to say but simply because the thread was going off topic and has been pulled back nearer to that for which it was posed. I'm loath to help back off track again.From what you say there and here, I'll shift you off the Faith Alone adherant list. A '*' placed by your name (by me) identified you (according to my opinion) as a faith alone adherant for the purposes of considering the data given. Like I say, I thought it was the case but if you are it is not apparent from what you say. For instance: The faith alone position would hold that a person must be in Christ to be saved and that this occurs (if it occurs) when a person is born again/from above/of spirit. The position before being put into Christ is that one is in Adam and is wicked, ungodly and completely lacking in righteous. They are doomed if they die in that in Adam 'category'. This is not to say that only those professing the faith alone position are the only ones in Christ. One can be in Christ without knowing or agreeing with (intellectually), the faith alone doctrine.I'll un-aterisk your name when I update. If any offence caused by the presumption (either way) then my apologies.Ian

I disagree. He tells me I'm not going to hell, and that a fair few people I know aren't either. He doesn't tell me who is going to hell. He gives me their attributes okay, but I cannot say for certain whether a person died with those attributes. Not even Hitler. That gives me hope. Its why I'm here. ? For the first 38 years of my life I never felt like I was going to hell - simply because I never considered nor believed in it. Now I know I'm not. Typical God. The day you get to really realise that hell exists is the day you find out your not going there. And you spend the rest of your days wondering why not. "..away from me you evildoers, for I never knew you"I've heard of the salvation by faith alone position. I've heard of the slavation by faith and works position. I've never heard of a position where a persons salvation depended upon riverRat.This message has been edited by iano, 26-Apr-2006 12:59 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 26-Apr-2006 01:21 AM

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My avatar shows a thief-on-the-cross view of Jesus. One thief said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom". The other remained firmly nailed (spiritually) to the sin that had hung him (physically) there - even as he stared eternity in the face. Who do YOU say that Jesus is? Will you continue to mock him, spit on him and deny him. Or will you call on his name and be saved? "Lord...."

My knower. No-one decides that they will be in Christ. God puts people into Christ not people. The old person is put to death. How could one be out of Christ again. Where would they go back too? There is no indication that I can see that they can be taken out of Christ again.We are exhorted to act like that which we are: sinners who have received a completley unmerited gracious gift. Judging others when you haven't a leg to stand on yourself (for you did not put you into Christ - He did) is not acting like what you are. But we are not threatened with having the gift removed if we don't comform to the exhortation. Disciplined yes, lost salvation - NO! Okay. People can be saved before they realise they are saved. Thats how it was for me. I hadn't read the bible to any degree but after being saved I read about all this stuff which was exactly what I had experienced. That was a factor in enabling me to believe it was the word of God.People might be saved but not have an assurance of their final salvation - they may think they can be lost if they don't toe the legal line. Not being assured doesn't mean they are not saved. A persons salvation doesn't depend on you in any way shape or form. That wouldn't be just. Any 1st year barrister could stand up at judgment and address the court "M'lud, it was riverRat that prevented my client from accepting you. I insist in the name of your perfect justice that he be released"A just Judge would have no option to to dismiss the case God is bigger than that. There will be nobody in Hell who doesn't deserve to be there. All have sinned, the wages of sin is death. There will be nobody in heaven who deserves to be there. "But now a righteousness FROM God is revealed. By faith. God gives Jesus' righteous to those who don't merit it yet do need it, by faith - because of his grace.If a person is saved it is because of Gods action (grace). If they are lost it is their own fault (justice)It really is as simple as thatThis message has been edited by iano, 26-Apr-2006 02:11 PM

My knower. Explain how you know you exist. You can't - you just know. That my knower. And my knower tells me various things: God exists...and I'm going to see him - irrespective of my behaviour. My knower also tells me that if I consider his grace unto me cheaply, casually, start of Romans 6-edly, then his discipline I can expect - unto 'sleep' (physical death). It stands to reason. My reason (his reason in fact what with him living in me). One could not say. God has mercy on whom he will have mercy. He 'choses'* and 'predestines'* those who will be saved. We don't. Unless God 'chooses' us we are lost. Only if God brings us to the point of saying "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" can we say "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"We cannot chose to accept the gospel. What we can chose to do is reject the gospel. In which case we are damned. Our fault.Its a bit of a subject and at the end of it all you will only be faced with Romans 9 (where the issue of predestination is presented) where Paul responds to the natural minds (and EvC's) flurry of objections with:

quote:

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19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

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22What if God (not necessarily the case), choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath”prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory” 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

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Yet the cry will come: NOT FAIR. Wait for it rR. It has nothing to do with human effort - the basis for every single Religion in the world since forever. Except Christianity.* means that the word in the '' should not be taken on the first idea that springs into your mind about what that word means. The bible defines its own words. Understatement is patently your strong suite rR... Now I'm confused. Your not faith alone. You seem here to say you are not faith and works. Salvation by rR is but a jest. Pray tell: your doctrine in a nutshell (which would include preferably, a precise-as-possible description as to function of works w.r.t. salvation) "Thats what I'm saying" means a just Judge must release the accused because he was mislead by you? Go out an preach a false gospel so that folk can get off would be the obvious tool in any evangelists list of do's and don'ts on that basis.Deal with the logic of what you are saying in response to my specific conclusion above.Another question: what jesus did + what you do in your heart. What did Jesus do in fact? Is this the same as my RC bosses "he made the way open so that we can by our actions climb the stairs" viewpoint Neither. "But now, (note the significant change of tack by Paul at the end of Romans 3(note it by reading up to this point))a righteousness from God is revealed..."What part of you getting your righteousness from God do you not understand. (this verse is supposedly the one which converted Martin Luther)This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 12:09 AM

Its a matter of quality. You are probably aware of the Christian position which holds that when a person believes God takes up residence inside them? He moves in?I find that I cannot separate my knowing that I exist (which you will no doubt share) from my knowing that God exists (which you perhaps don't).The biblical picture of the relationship between us (Christians, the church, those in Christ, the righteous etc )... and God, sees us as the bride and him as the groom. And what is Gods purpose in marriage as revealed even back in Genesis? "The two will become one flesh"This isn't just a sexual reference but is modelled somewhat in the best human marriages you see from time to time, where the two are welded into one unit.And it is as I find it. I am welded to him as his bride. I know him because he lives IN me. I and him are as one flesh. What he thinks I think (or more correctly, will fully think on the other side of this mortal coil. Doe now I see it "through a glass dimly" - but sufficiently to make me desire to vist this God foresaken place)ps: "I am therefore I think" from another discussion we had. It reflects better the way I hold to it{AbE} as to quality - which I went silent on. I cannot separate my knowing I exist from knowing he exists. The knowing has the same quality, the same timbre, the same....its just, the same.This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 12:45 AM

One way to read this is the way I responded above. "How does iano make the link?" "How does iano know?" Which I probably explained to less than your satisfaction.The other way to read it is: "how does one get...Which is another way of saying "How do I save myself...". Should this latter reading be the intent, then the key is getting to the point of realising that you can't save yourself. That you are totally dependant upon God to save you. But that again carries the implication that you have to do something to "get to the point" whereas that is not the position. God must be the one to bring you there."But how can I be saved if I have to rely on God to bring me there in the first place. What if he doesn't?"Welcome to the paradox. If he saves you then it will remain a paradox, the result of which (for any believer) is: "why did he save me and not another". The other side, as already mentioned somewhere here, is that if one is lost, it is only because they have rejected his offer to save. More than that is not given to us. A complete mechanism of salvation is simply not open to us in this world.All that one can do (even if it is him that enables it) is to respond from ones heart. Real simple stuff - and the very hardest stuff to admit to - even to self.This is my story seen in retrospect - if it is seen as part of your story that would be because he is drawing you - even if you don't realise it (you probably won't). Or you are not seeing it because you are rejecting his call. See what your gut (not intellect) says to this...- I am, when push comes to shove...a shit. I know in my knower that I am a shit - even if the world and his brother thinks the sun shines out my behind, I am a shit.- even if I can argue around the block about the objectivity vs. subjectivity of morals at EvC, I know in my knower that there are things which are just plain wrong. And that I do them. And that I enjoy doing them - even if, frequently, I wish I didn't do them (Roman 7: the man on whom the law has worked its course: leading a person to this revelation about themselves).-I have felt the insignificance of me (seas and skys) yet been repulsed at the thought - somehow knowing I had to refuse the notion that I was insignificant. I have chosen for the intellectual escapes: nihilsm, materialism, existentialism, self-cannabalism? Escapes which open their inviting, lying legs ( and which I knew to be such). Anytime when exposure to that excruciating sight proved too much.I have plunged the depths in order to escape that simplest of knowlege about myself. I do evil.His way of salvation is to convict. To convince. If you know what you are - simply because you know, then be glad. He has shown you that about yourself. The only prayer that will be heard which enables "knowing him because I know" is the one that says:"I'm in dire trouble. Its caused by me. Help me - for I have no one else to turn to"Such a prayer might not use those words but if from the heart, if from the knower - then respond he will.For he is like that...edit: change significant to insignificant
This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 02:35 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 09:43 AM

The first of the 10 commandments: "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have any gods before me" If Gods way of salvation is that he is the one who provides it (or more generally so as to compare Christianity with all the Religions: God provides,without us having to do anything, that which the 'religion' supposedly offers and which is desirable) then it follows that a false god/energy/whatever won't offer it. It will offer the opposite. Thus not "Gods gift" but "Mans effort" nondual Advaita vedanta too. Googling brought up just 3 pages. Not exactly a mainstream religion but as per usual, the what-I-do-achieves-for-me-the-desired-result route is plainly evident.http://amma.hindunet.org/amma-l/archives/1101/0096.htmlA persons asks for clarification about meditation and is answered in terms that leave no doubt as the doing (and other action verbs) involved on their part. For example: To just be or not to just be. That is the question. Presumably the language used in this passage is something one has to spend considerable time immersed in before one has even a notion about what is being talked about. More doing.Presumably if one doesn't do the doing and ignores it completely then the desired result, to be gained by the doing, won't be forthcoming and the undesirable result, coming back as someone else again and again or whatever, is ones lot.At the very end this... Like all good lies (my apologies for the strong language Lfen but this is what it is), the better ones stick most closely to the truth. Here however, the Matrix splits at the seams slightly and we see outright Bible copyright infringement spilling out .edit to add linkThis message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 10:51 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 01:45 PM

Hi Lfen,I'm off for a long weekend so can't read through fully what you wrote. I'll reign in the attempts at humor but I was coming from another thread where that kind of jousting is par for the course and isn't taken all that seriously.Although I believe all other religions to be a lie there is little profit in mentioning that fact. SorryA question at the centre of my post: if I do not meditate or do any of the other things which adherents of your religion are encouraged (if that is the right word) to do, will a person still ultimately receive the benefits of what the religion offers Nope. You don't have to do a thing.If a person is saved it is because God saved them. If they listen to the gospel it won't do a thing to them unless God effort causes it to pierce their hearts. If they are lost it is because they refused his working on them in order that they could believe gospel. They will have hardened their own heart such that the "sword of truth" cannot penetrateSalvation by his grace/damnation by our refusal. The only doing we can do is to lose ourselves.This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 07:27 PM

The burnt offering is no longer a requirement - it was temporary in nature. Then was then. Praising and worshipping however is for all time. Ever think that his wanting us to do so might be largely for our benefit and not his? Don't know about you Lfen but consider the lesser human parallel: there is joy to be had for the p&w-er when the p&w-ing a beloved. Imagine not being able to?Apply the same thinking to a beloved God. I love God and it is good for me to have a means to express that love. He knows that sin in me will cause me to doubt and deviate and run from him so issues a command, just like he did with "love your neighbour". It is benficial for me and honouring of him to follow his command (for that is what Law means to a believer).Whilst it would be unhealthy for one human partner to worship (exhalting) another without reciprocal worship (for it would set one side up as a god) it is not unhealthy for the worship to be one way w.r.t. God. Worship simply acknowledges God as being God - something which is healthy to do. Patently such exhaltation cannot be two way - there is but one God. Praise on the other hand, can be a two way street "well done good a faithful servant" is praise indeed

I don't see why that follows in and of itself. A fuller statement might be: If I reject, it is despite Gods call on me to accept. If I accept it is because of Gods call on me to accept. Without his enabling me I would never be able to accept. Thus it cannot be said simply that I chose. Unless he chose me, called me, showed me then I could never believe. While your looking, find one that implies any effort at all on our part in relation to salvation 'Mine' does "There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ" Romans 8:1. The opposite of this should be obvious. The criteria for going to heaven: In Christ. If you are not in Christ you are in Adam. All are born in Adam. Who are 'us'? And in what way did Jesus 'change the world'? How clean does the temple have to be? What if some cobwebs grow and the cleaniness varies (as it surely will)? Does God move out again? This stuff is the stuff of pure subjectivity rR. It is far simpler than that. God only dwells in a place of pure righteousness - not partial. And none of our actions can make us clean enough. A Christian is declared righteous - totally so. His righteousness is not his own of course - he has had it imputed or credited to him - just as Abraham did. Christs righteousness. "Do you not know your body is a temple" cries Paul. He exhorts Christians (not everyone) to put to death the deeds of the flesh BECAUSE they are temples. You don't do moneylending in the temple - you defile it. Defiling the temple doesn't mean it is no longer one - just that it is being defiled. I think there is "greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven" seems to say so. Works are important but not in the sense that they result in entrance to heaven. Or hell. Entry to those places come from elsewhere, your works affect your position in either of these places (we might suppose that greater/lesser applies as much to hell as heaven. God is perfectly just. Works define the spoils. But not the destination. The only person who is a Christian is one who has been made so by God. When a person believes then they become Christians. Not saying they believe, not believing they believe. But only by believing as defined by God. Then the spirit is given. And only to Christians. It is part and parcel of what happens at the point of conversion. You have a point. And breaking even the merest iota of any rule is sufficient to damn. All one has to do is do anything which they know to be wrong and they will have sinned. We were born sinners - sin is what sinners do, can be expected to do Again, definition of who constitutes 'us' (with some biblical backup) would be helpful From - through - toFrom God, through faith, to all who believe. Faith is a highway down which God sends/imputes Jesus righteousness to us. If I have faith it is because God built the highway. If I am declared righteous then he is the one who has made me so. That highway is put in place on the point of belief. The belief too is enabled by God in the sense that he brings us to a place where it is possible for us to ask blindly. To get on our knees and admit "I need you" The belief at that point isn't developed. For that instant it is blind belief. Illogical belief. Born out of God-enabled desparation.But not for very long. Once that happens, the highway is opened and know-belief can start to be transported us-wardsOr we can stay off our knees and continue to deny our need

I'm off to bed rR so if I may I'll pick some highlights. The effort/salvation verses would take too much for now.No condemnation: don't know Mr Baker. It doesn't matter that I do know. In Christ/not In Christ that is the question. The time available to a man for being taken out of Adam and being put into Christ runs out at his last breath. If Mr Baker seems not to be in Christ now that is not to say that he will not be. I was 38 when God put me into Christ. I could have been 8, 78 or 108. Hitler could be there for all I knowThe song ain't over til the fat lady sings Your mixing metaphores here rR. Veil torn indicating the way was now open between man and God. No more the Old way where God dealt with mankind through priest and the like. Now direct one-to-one relationship was possible. Through Christ (WAY, truth and life). Way open doesn't mean one doesn't need a vehicle to make the journey. Christ is the vehicle. One has to be in the vehicle to make the journey. The journey is instantaneous w.r.t salvation. Christ as a portal. Beam me up Scotty.Sending the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the veil being torn. Justified, In Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit, born again, law written on hearts, adopted sons, heirs, glorifed, eternal life. All instantaneous occurances at the point of conversion. All God given. A package deal. There are some key phrases which serve well when reading the pivotal mechanistic book which explains the Gospel. Romans. Look for the "therefore's" and "but now's" and "what shall we say then's" which Paul so frequently uses. These are nodal points where the apostle has presented his partial case and will now draw a conclusion or deal with an objection arising from what he has previously said up to this point.Have a read of Romans up to 3:20 or thereabouts. Roman 1:16 Paul sets out his stall. The issue is salvation. And the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes: Jew and Gentile alike. That is the main thesis.Then he expounds on the detail from here: argument dealing with the Gods wrath poured out on the godless (obvious). Then turning (in Romans 2) on the religiously-minded (who would sit beside Paul agreeing "Yes: those filthy Gentiles (godless) - they deserve as you say" only to say to them "You are as bad as those Gentiles!". Pauls arrives at Romans 3.x having shown that BOTH the godless ("who gives a crap about the law") and the god-requires-law-abiding ("if we follow the law (and we do) we'll be fine") are in the same sinking boatHe concludes witheringly with his summary for those who would think that law adherering results in salvation at Romans 3:20 Firsly the Gentiles are shagged as plain out and out lawbreakers ("he who so much as breaks the merest portion of the law is guilty of breaking it all" - oh dear!).Then he shows that the Religious are just as shagged because attempting (Jars 'trying') to adhere to the law doesn't save ("he who breaks the merest portion of the law is guilty of breaking it all" applies here too - for want of perfect adherance)Paul gives us the actual purpose of the law here: laws purpose > to let us know we are what we are: sinners. Without it how would we know??This first point is established. Paul has finished explaining that everyone is in need of salvation, Jew and Gentile alike: religious, agnostic, athiest. Whether they now know it or not. And the way that natural, in Adam sinning men believe is the way to it - law adhering, being good, loving their neighbour as themselves - is not in fact the way. Thats the bad news."BUT NOW...."Paul, having first explained that everyone is shagged: Gentile and Jew alike not turns to expound on what it is we need to hear at this point - some Good News. As he did in Romans 1:16 he summarizes a central point before he begins with the detail No justification/righteousness through law adhering and certainly no justification/righteousness through law breaking. Righteous (definitely required by man) is to be supplied FROM God. And it was always the case. The OT said so (even if it was revealed through a glass darkly) witnessed by prophets as this way of righteousness was.What has all this to do with a Christians works you ask? Go look at the rest of Romans - say up to chapter 8. Keep a watch out for the "but now" and "therefore" and "what shall we say then" a similar nodal points.Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then" ("...in response to this doctrine of justification by faith and not works which I, Paul, have just explained to you in chapter 5"). "Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?" Paul is immediately responding the very first idea that enters the head of someone who hears of the doctrine of justification by faith alone, to whit: "Grreeaaat!! I am saved! I am going to heaven - Hang on a sec... Doesn't that mean I can sin as I please from now on and still go to heaven - yippee!!!")To which Paul responds immediately "God forbid!" (read "are you nuts?!!") "Do you not know that....?"He goes on to explain what a Christian is, what has actually happened, what the significance of that is, what being made a child of God is going to entail. Justification by faith is only the beginning. Yes, heaven awaits. But there is so much more to it...Read the exhortations as exhortations. You don't exhort someone to behave in a manner that is against their character. A man in Adam is a slave to sin, he cannot do anything but no matter how hard he tries. A child of God (thus made) has a new character. Part of him which was dead to God has been brought to life. That part of him, his spirit, is now receptive to God, can hear God can understand and agree with the way of God. He is not a natural man anymore - the natural (spiritually dead) man being unable to understand - the things of God are foolishness to him. The new man still walks, is contained within a sinful flesh however. A struggle commences between the Righteous spirit and the sinful flesh. It is a fight we are exhorted to, ordered to fight. The born again person has been adopted into Gods family. And so he is EXHORTED to act like a child of God. Works don't save, they are simply actions which we are exhorted to do - on the basis of us now being who and what we are.Read the excitement and sheer willing in Pauls words..."You're an American, don't sell arms secrets to the Iranians, don't dodge your taxes, don't conspire against your government - ACT LIKE WHAT YOU ARE. You were once an enemy of America, an alien - but now no longer. You have the old masters mantras running through your head (fleshly deeds which you must (with the help of the holy spirit which you have received) put to death. But you belong now to a new master. You were bought at great expense. Remember that those old things belong no longer to you in your new guise, your newness of life. They are no longer compatible as they once were, with who you now are, no longer are you enslaved to them. If the son has set you free indeed - then grasp that fact: FREEDOM ya numbskull , live by that fact, prepare yourself (with his help) as would a bride for her wedding day! Be holy for he is holy. Act like that which you now are. Don't bring his Kingdom into disrepute. Hold your head up - for you are a Kings Son (adopted - not begotten: but loved the very same). Hire out the movie and watch the crowning at the end of Narnia if its visuals that do it better for you! But whatever you do I exhort you, for your good and his glory to - just do it!!!And if you don't you'll go to Hell...(Just kidding with the last line rR. Am checking if your still awake (I'm not). "In Christ" folk never will be condemned. Those in Christ will be judged according to what we do alright. But not in the sense that our salvation is affected by it. "For I am convinced..."NightThis message has been edited by iano, 04-May-2006 02:09 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 04-May-2006 10:29 AM

God already knows every single person who is saved (he knew before a person was born). He knows every attempt to disciple and every move the enemy makes to prevent it. He knows if I get lazy, sit on my butt and don't share "...because I want to watch the football" Every action, thought and deed of every person is already played out in Eternity. The game is already over. Just not yet in time. See this post which may perhaps illustrate the mystery of eternity. Its only a partial description if it is one at all. No temporal being can get his head around Eternity.http://EvC Forum: What are the odds of God existing? -->EvC Forum: What are the odds of God existing?In other words whether you do or do not share doesn't affect the final result - for the final result is already in. If you chose today not to share tomorrow because of what I have typed here now - then that won't change the final result - which already includes your decision based on what I've typed here. Mind bending heh Because he says so. We don't make them as such anyway. God uses us to deliver the gospel. The gospel is the treasure, we're just the jars of clay that carry it.....God choosing/ God's sovereign choice / God having mercy upon whom he will have mercy is only one side of the story. On the other we have God wanting that none should perish (he wants everyone - which means salvation is open to everyone)/Jesus came to seek and save the lost = everyone /For God so loved the WORLD = everyoneA paradox thus.If a man is saved the God is the one who did it. He uses people who were prepared to follow his instructions to share the gospel alright - but all the effective aspect of his salvation, that which reached into a recipients heart, melts it (whether slowly or quickly) and converts them - is done by him, enabled by him, powered by him. Even the desire a person may have to share the gospel comes from him. We do nothing without him.On the other hand, if a person is lost then they will have chosen that result completely by themselves. Satan will have tempted. Being tempted is not a sin however - responding to it is, and that is ours and ours alone. A person lost will have rejected Gods call, hardened their own heart to his call. That is the only way I have at present in best-aligning two undoubted biblical truths:Perfect grace unto salvation (Gods action) vs Perfect justice unto damnation (mans choice) The way open doesn't mean everyone goes through. Only those who are put into Christ receive his spirit. For those not in Christ, the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in them. We probably agree on that. We have. God is drawing all men. He does the drawing - his 'effort'. All we can do is pull away. If we are drawn in, it is because we pulled away insufficiently. We can only do negative. He does the positive. Fisher of men... In taking a trawl through Roman I was pointing out a way to notice the key points in the argument as Paul builds it up.Gentiles (the ungodly) are guilty - a gentile doesn't care about works because he doesn't believe salvation is necessaryJews (the self-righteously godly) are guilty - such a one realises there is/maybe a God and salvation is/maybe necessary but thinks that salvation is works based.note: a person can be in Christ and confused about the gospel and still think salvation dependant on works. This doesn't affect their position in Christ - salvation is still theirs - whether they know it or not. In Christ is the only criteria for salvation.Both Jew and Gentile are equally lost thus - there is no difference. Righteousness doesn't stem from man ("all your (self)righteousness are as filthy rags"). Righteousness must come from God. He is the only one who has righteousness available which is sufficient to meet his standard. Christs righteousness. God did everything to obtain that which is necessary for us. It is his to offer as a gift if he choses to - not ours to earn. For there is nothing anyone can give to earn such a precious thing. It is an insult to even think we could.Works are important. They are described in Romans as important for all kinds of reasons, not least because it says "thank you" to God for his gift. There will be times when we will fall to our knees in thankfulness (when his spirit reveals to ours what it is he actually did for us). There will be times when we will sin abominably, spitting in his beautiful face. Whichever - a gift is a gift. If it were conditional on our thanking or level of thanking or trying our best to thank, then it wouldn't be a gift it would be something earned. A wage. But a wage is not a gift.(Remember man losing himself? "The wages of sin is death (man earns damnation by his evil works) but the gift of God is eternal life"Paying attention to the "what shall we say's" the "but now's", the "for's", the "therefore's" simply helps establish base reference points in the argument that Paul builds up throughout Romans I have found. Primarily this is what they were. But God used those situations to have written down what it is that applies at all times. The Epistles are talking to Christians. But all of it can talk to everyman. Take Romans 7: the "oh wretched man" piece. This is not applicable to Christians but applies to a man under the conviction of the law. A man on the point of conversion. A man brought close by God might read this and have this passage be the one that converts him. Only to go to the first line of Chapter 8 and be blown away.The prophets in the OT were often speaking into particular situations in their day. They didn't know that the words were necessarily prophetic for NT times. Same thing in the NT. I am a beggar who is telling other beggars where to find bread. If I appear to exhalt myself then let it be known that I do not. I am a filthy, manky, greasy, dirty sinner before God. Were it not for his grace>acton unto me and giving me his sons righteousness then in my filth and sin I would surely and rightly have perished. If some wonder why God hasn't called them then that is progress. The starting of a wish that God would call, reveal himself, a seeing something of the Gospel and being attracted to it. God is calling all. If a person does not reject it in their heart (as opposed to their intellect - which may, as mine did, fight all the way) then in Christ they will be put. In his good time. They might find the following prayer fits their current positionLord I don't know you
I don't even want to know you
But I want to want to know you.A person who can pray this from the heart does so at an apparently great distance from God. But the Father is everlooking out for his Prodigal son. Even if a great distance off, the Father will see and run to him. Real life prodigals however, will probably run away again. It can be a bruising experience. We are the ones who inflict the bruises on ourselves on the way to God however. Or inflict Hell on ourselves if we run away long and hard enough."God I need you, I see what I've done, I'm sorry for it, Thank you for what you've done for me"That's all there is to it really. But it must come from the heart and a heart hardened to God cannot pray such a prayer from the heart. God must melt it first - and that might hurt. Man will, I would hold, only be lost if he refuses to have his heart melted.Me, I didn't refuse. Why not? I couldn't bear the pain I would have had to undergo in order to nail my softened heart shut. My prayer is that all would relent. But the colder the heart gets to Gods call the less it is able to feel that pain. It gets numb. Not feeling any pain his call inflicts is not a good thing. The pain manifested itself in my case thus: I became increasingly aware (over years) that I wasn't a good man. It got very, very intense. It may differ for others. I written about my own experience a couple of times here along difference lines rR but can't remember where. This is my first post at EvC. Funny, you're in the post prior to mine!http://EvC Forum: The experience of converting -->EvC Forum: The experience of convertingA great debate would be er...great. I suggest we do a bible study in Romans. I hold that the gospel is therein contained. It would have to go slow though. Work is picking up again.Later dude

Hardly. God knows everthing before it happens you may agree. From that SINGLE fact, all kinds of things (although not everything) can be concluded.Sure, we makes choices but whatever they may turn out to be (in our 'time') He already knows what they will be. This doesn't preclude us making choices in Time. Nor does it mean the choices are not ours to make - as you say.Another example: judgement is not a trial - it's a judgement. Which is the public proclaimation of a decision made. A trial is were evidence is presented to the judge and is considered by the judge. But all the evidence is already in for God. All the choices we have yet to make are already known.Thus He has already made His Judgement. I say this for His Judgement cannot not be known to Him. Simply knowing he know everything allows one to conclude this.Time is simply part of the mechanism which God used to save people. (and all who 'will be' saved are already known to him. Their destination is known to him before they are even born) The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It needs delivering to man so that the power of it can act on a man. God sometimes uses man to deliver it. Why this way? I don't know. But God has always dealt with man through man so it is consistant with his way. Hopefully it is not me who you find to be judgemental. If its Him then this from Romans 9 "Define salvation." Being in Christ"Describe conversion". the point at which God takes a person out of Adam and puts them into Christ."Describe why you think you have the right to claim you are saved, and someone else isn't. (don't just describe why you are saved)"God put me in Christ. Thats how I know I am saved. Having been in Adam and being now in Christ, I am in a position to comment. I can recognise when a person most definitely is not in Christ (which means he is still in Adam). I cannot recognise it when the situation is fuzzy however - a person doesn't have to know they are in Christ to be in Christ for example. Often I tell though, not because I am better than anybody (I'm not) or smart or any such thing. For example, a person who says "Jesus is a demon" is not in Christ and is thus not saved - yet. If they were in Christ they couldn't say that. I don't say that that person will never be in Christ. I was 38. I could have been 78 - in which case we wouldn't be having this conversation yet. If a person being damned is the result of any action or omission on the part of others then God is unjust. You cannot punish someone for something someone else did or didn't do to/for them. Perfect justice can only result if damnation is earned wholly by the person.God is in charge of everything alright. But he chose to give us free will. And free will is made void if man has nothing to chose from. Thus God supplied a choice: to reject salvation or not. If we don't reject then he will draw us to safety.The Gospel is fuel which will pull us towards salvation. God applies the throttle.Evil is the fuel which allows man to reject God. Man applies the throttle. The receipt of the Holy Spirit on conversion as INDWELLING: his function is unique to Christians: confirmation of their position, enabling the battle against the flesh etc He doesn't indwell, he acts upon. A different thing altogether.. The Spirit doesn't dwell in all men rR. His role in non-Christians is to convict them of sin, their need for righteousness and of the judgement to come. Any 'gifts' manifest by a non-Christian are the powered by Satans realm. For any person who is not in Christ is under the sway of and resides in, the dominion of the evil one. Their are only 3 things relevant here.God
A mans spirit
A mans spirits choice.All the rest is a mechanism on which man makes his choic: Reject/don't reject. There is ample to suggest those that are saved will be in the minority (God knew how many before he wrote the Bible and so was in a position to comment). There is talk of the narrow gate through which few will pass and the wide through which many will pass. Only a remenant surviving is a very common theme too.God didn't create people in order to burn them. He created them so that they could come into a relationship with him. If they are lost it is of their own doing. I might sound hard here. I might sound as if I am standing on some pedestal looking down from my lofty position and hurling rocks. I am not This causes me anguish. It causes me to return time and again to why?And when I consider that there was no better way to allow a person a choice (otherwise I believe God would have done it - for he loves us) I have no choice but to state it the way it is. Harsh though it may come across as.God is Love. God is wrath, God is Just. His way must be consistant with how he is. God cannot not be God. I don't disbelieve you. I never thought I was going to Hell either. I never considered it. It was only when I turned and he took me in that I realised Hell exists. And that I am not going there. In one sense you are right. A saved person is undergoing a process (called sanctification - or being made holy). But only people who are saved are being saved. Its the eternal/time interface againRepentance unto salvation is a once off affair. Repenting of ones attempt at operating independantly of God and accepting his rightful place in our lives. Him on the throne, us his subjects. Him as father, us as sonsRepentance ongoing is another thing altogether. That belongs to the process of sanctification - which only applies to those who have repented unto salvationA person can be in Christ and sin. They are sure to do so. This does not affect their salvation. But they can and will be disciplined by their Father. His final sanction can be as serious as removing them from life on earth Sin/level isn't the criteria for salvation. In Christ/in Adam. Thats it. As I said, it is possible to know a person is in Adam. God can counter all this. If something outside causes a person to turn away further, God can increase his call to that person to compensate for that. He can ensure that his call is sufficient so that all external influences are compensated for and that the only rejection left is the rejection of that persons own heart. Them and God - all else countered. Charles life isn't over yet. He may still come.These posts are getting seriously long rR. If you'd like to go on shall we pare it down to an issue or two? Your pickCheers,Ian

This picture can be developed a little. Its a tug of war. God pulling in one direction, sinful man pulling in the other. If sinful man stops pulling then God will draw him to His side.Death is someone cutting the rope. Man, who was pulling using the energy of evil will fall backwards into the pit which exists behind him. God, who was pulling using the energy of his love will too, fall into the pit dug behind him.Both pits are in fact the same one. The pit is called Gods wrath. And both man and God will meet there