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Author Topic:   Evolution on Trial by Bill Whitehouse
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 42 (351763)
09-24-2006 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
09-23-2006 2:12 PM


Well, his introduction contains lots of mistakes, and the rest of the book consists of alternately putting two cases (as in a trial, hence the title) one of which he clearly doesn't understand.
Oh, that's useful.
I have a sudden urge to reread the transcript of the Dover Pandas Trial. That had real scientists in it, and actually happened; and as such is more interesting than a wish-fulfillment fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 09-23-2006 2:12 PM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 10:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 09-24-2006 4:52 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 42 (351833)
09-24-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Moe
09-24-2006 10:25 AM


Thank you for the welcome! I am reading the book right now and may have some comments soon. I'm reading some of the postings here in this forum right now.
But this comes from Whitehouse's introduction:
"More specifically, if an individual cannot grasp the point-counterpoint of the discussion in this E-Book, then, one is not in a conceptual position to honestly argue either for, or against, evolutionary theory. Whatever one might have to say on such issues will be entirely derived from the opinions of others - opinions that may, or may not, be true and concerning which one will have no direct, personal understanding, knowledge or insight."
Well, that's what he says in his introuduction. This is what he says while he's swanking about about how smart he is.
The fact is that in his introduction he just gets evolution wrong, and his book is doomed from that point onwards.
One cannot discuss an idea until one understands it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 10:25 AM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 42 (351837)
09-24-2006 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Moe
09-24-2006 5:23 PM


Please read the introduction or I shall assume that you are lazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:23 PM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 42 (351843)
09-24-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Moe
09-24-2006 5:33 PM


You are now asking me to do your homework for you.
Ordinarily, I should tell you to get up off your lazy arse and do it yourself.
But I do have a few spare minutes, so I'll help you out.
You will find that people are more likely to do this if you say "please".
Wait.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:33 PM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:46 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 19 by Chiroptera, posted 09-24-2006 5:49 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 27 of 42 (351865)
09-24-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Moe
09-24-2006 5:33 PM


He says:
"Therefore, the cause of that which natural selection comes to act upon still stands in need of an explanation. You cannot use natural selection as an explanation for that which natural explanation clearly presupposes without becoming entangled in completely circular thinking, and this certainly does not constitute an explanation of any kind."
He does not understand, therefore, that what natural selection acts on is mutation.
He says:
"Moreover, the idea of the accumulation of small variations does not really account for either the origins of life in general..."
But of course the theory of evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life.
He says:
"... or for the origins of the different biological blueprints, so to speak, on which the notion of species difference is based."
This looks like plain nonsense to me, but maybe you can explain it.
What are these "different biological blueprints"?
He says:
"Genetics is not the science which provides an account of the story of the origins of this capacity. Rather, genetics is merely the science which delineates how such a capacity operates once it has arisen."
This is a flat lie. Of course the theory of genetics provides an account of the origin of variation.
Genetics is not, of course, "merely the science which delineates how such a capacity operates once it has arisen." That would be the law of natural selection.
He says:
"Everything that is necessary for understanding this material has been included within the context of the direct and cross examinations which take place during the trial."
Obviously this is not true. The evidence for science is not compressed in his book.
He says that his book will allow you to:
"Be the first kid on your block to actually know what one is talking about when the conversation turns to evolutionary theory."
And yet he does not know what the theory of evolution is.
And you haven't been bothered to learn what you're talking about, but you demand that I explain it to you.
You're lucky that I had a spare ten minutes.
As for your falsehood about how I am "evading the question", no, I am not. But unless I have some spare time, as I do right now, why should I waste my precious hours on explaining what the question is --- to someone who has been too lazy to find that out for himself?
If you want to know about biology, second-hand biology textbooks are cheap.
If you can't be bothered to learn, why are you asking these asinine questions?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 30 of 42 (351873)
09-24-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by PaulK
09-24-2006 5:58 PM


I find it very odd that the although the trial is supposed to be about the trial almost nothing is said about what is actually being taught. Yet that should surely be the central issue of the trial.
Well, let's be honest. In a way you find that very odd.
And yet we are debating creationists. So in another way, this is crushingly inevitable.
They can't debate what is actually taught, so they have to debate something else.
It is not really "odd" that they can't debate science. It's inevitable.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 32 of 42 (351877)
09-24-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Moe
09-24-2006 5:50 PM


Re: Where is it wrong?
How do you define evolution o evolutionary theory? You seem to be implying that origins of life has nothing to do with evolution, and I'm not quite sure how you come to that conclusion.
Be .. cause ... the ... theo ... ry ... of .. ev ... o ... lu ... tion ... has ... damn ... all ... to ... do ... with ... the ... or ... i ... gin ... of ... life.
Sheesh.
Before you started posting about the theory of evolution, why didn't you take five minutes to find out what it is?

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." --- Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:50 PM Moe has not replied

  
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