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Author Topic:   Epigenetic Factors as 'Creative' influence in Evolution
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5903 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 19 of 30 (90248)
03-04-2004 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Parsimonious_Razor
03-04-2004 3:27 AM


Hi PR! Welcome to EVCforum. It's great to see a gen-u-ine evo psych researcher join the forum. It'll be a super addition to the usual run-of-the-mill molecular biologists, geneticists and others of that ilk that haunt this place when they should be working. A word of caution: do NOT engage resident poster Syamasu. He's convinced that evo psych represents the short road to perdition, and is ultimately responsible for every societal ill from eugenics, the Holocaust and the rise of national socialism in 1930's Germany to premature male balding... Otherwise, enjoy your stay - this is a great forum.
Back on topic. You stated:
A species of fruit fly that started laying its eggs in old world apple tree when they were brought over despite no genetic propensity for the type of fruit, the difference in seasonal variance eventually lead to enough of a pre-zygotic barrier that the species diverged genetically as well as behaviorally.
I assume you're talking about the apple maggot fly (Rhagoletis pomonella), probably one of the most studied examples of sympatric speciation ever (for obvious commercial reasons). The mechanism and evolution of the two host races - one on hawthorn and the other on imported apple trees - is fairly well understood (or at least has reasonable empirical support). The initial host shift is likely to be related to competition and the availability in the immediate vicinity of a new resource (historical records indicate that many early apple trees were planted in proximity to existing populations of hawthorn). In addition, Rhagoletis appears to be highly plastic (i.e., adaptable). Finally, the heritable component the sympatry is likely related to the evolution of host-specific mating preferences - possibly caused by different chemical composition of the food sources. Interestingly, it appears that the different host races will freely inter-breed when in contact, which means we're not looking at distinct species yet. However, there is evidence that the rate of hybridization is getting smaller - a good indicator that we have a case of incipient speciation happening.
To make a long story short, I'm not seeing how the differentiation developing between the hawthorn and apple-specific host races of Rhagoletis pomonella is related to epigenetics. It appears pretty straight-forward neodarwinism. There also doesn't appear to be evidence of "pro-active adaptive behavior" here. Could you expand on how this would be differentiated from any other speciation mechanism?
refs:
Bush GL, 1992, "Host race formation and sympatric speciation in Rhagoletis fruit flies (Diptera: Tephritidae)", Psyche 99:335—357. Bush is about the most cited authority on Rhagoletis, so you've probably run across him before.
Dres M, Mallet J, 2002 "Host races in plant-feeding insects and their importance in sympatric speciation", Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. 357:471—492, provides a good overview of the causes and genetics of host shift in phytophagous insects, including 21 case studies. Although primarily an attempt to develop a new definition and valid criteria for determining sympatry, it gives some good background on the issue from a genetic/ecology perspective.
Hawthorne DJ, Via S, 2001, "Genetic linkage of ecological specialization and reproductive isolation in pea aphids", Nature 412:904—907. Although not about Rhagoletus, the article shows much more clearly how resource competition provides the initial impetus to host shift leading to creation of distinct host races - again from a neodarwinian standpoint.
Looking foward to your reply.
(edited to fix formatting)
[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 03-04-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 03-04-2004 3:27 AM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5903 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 24 of 30 (90499)
03-05-2004 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Parsimonious_Razor
03-05-2004 3:20 AM


Re: Bigger Picture
Hi PR,
I don't think too many people are going to violently disagree with this part:
That’s the main point I am trying to make here. If the genetic unit is a complex area of cultural, hormonal, regulatory, stochastic, and DNA interactions significant changes to the development, morphology and behavior of an organism could be achieved without a change in the DNA structure. This offers a different force in generating ‘creative’ adaptations in evolution. If a change is made in a regulatory system or regulatory systems for the regulatory systems, ect. You could see much more significant changes in organisms even in only a hand full of generations.
At least, as far as the effects of environmental triggers on both development - which may or may not be directly linked to adult morphology - and behavior. Behavior especially is highly modifiable by environment. Examples of learned behaviors abound in organisms as disparate as birds and primates (one of my favorite examples is the natural history of the Cocos Island Finch, which is a heterospecific behavioral mimic). I also don't think anyone is going to be arguing with your contention that DNA plays only one part - albeit IMO a fairly major one - in the phenotype (including behavior) of organisms. Adaptation can take numerous forms for numerous causes. However, I would argue that the fundamental genetic basis for either morphology or behavior must be in place in the genotype for any of these modifications to be inheritable. Mutation is simply the major way in which new variations are created in populations of most organisms. Humans, OTOH, seem to be more influenced by culture than biology. As it is clear that "cultural evolution" works at a substantially faster pace than biological, this is unsurprising. However, it isn't clear that the same applies to other organisms.
On a side note, I have to apologize in advance for once again questioning one of your examples.
Obviously this is a very tightly balanced interaction between environmental influences and genetics. The salamander activates a series of developmental genes to create the cannibal morph. Is the propensity to activate these genes a DNA code in and of itself? I am not convinced.
There have been a number of studies done on A. tigrinum that indicate a) the development of cannibal morphs is critically dependent on environmental cues (see, for example, Hoffman EA, Pfennig DW, 1999, "Proximate causes of cannibalistic polyphenism in larval tiger salamanders", Ecology 80:1076-1080) and b) the "ability" to switch is genetically determined (see, for example, Pfennig DW, 1990 "The adaptive significance of an environmentally-cued developmental switch in an anuran tadpole" Oecologia 85:101-107 and Pfennig DW, Collins JP, 1993 "Kinship affects morphogenesis in cannibalistic salamanders" Nature 362:836-838). Finally, the idea that the ability to switch is genetically determined is underlined by the fact that morphogenesis into the cannibal morph can be stopped when the environmental cue is removed (see, Reilly SM, Lauder GV, Collins JP, 1992 "Performance consequences of a trophic polymorphism: feeding behavior in typical and cannibal phenotypes of Ambystoma tigrinum" Copeia 1992:672-679). Facultative metamorphosis into the cannibal variant is, as you said, environmentally triggered. However, the ability to do so is coded in the DNA and inherited. Absent the environmental cue, the existing capability is never expressed, and is simply passed on to the next generation with all the rest of the genotype. With the right trigger, we have critters eating their conspecifics.
It's entirely possible I'm still missing what you're arguing. Excuse me if that's the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 03-05-2004 3:20 AM Parsimonious_Razor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 03-05-2004 12:37 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5903 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 26 of 30 (91110)
03-08-2004 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Parsimonious_Razor
03-05-2004 12:37 PM


Re: Bigger Picture
Hi PR. Thanks for your reply.
I guess I am not convinced that DNA is a controlling mechanism. Certainly the instructions present in the DNA molecule are necessary to for the creation of all the regulatory and structural properties of the organism. But that doesn't mean its the deterministic part of the system. The examples I have given certainly have a genetic basis, exemplify classic genetic/environmental interaction but more than that I don't think you can explain what happens by an appeal to the genes. Genes seem to be activated or not activated by forces that lay outside of the genes.
I don't really disagree with this, except to say that some genes are activated or not activated by non-genetic factors (i.e., environment). However, the folks that take a "genes-eye view" would include the other genes in the body as part of the environment. IOW, whereas the expression of a given gene or genetic cascade may be effected by control genes, they're also often effected by non-control genes or factors. It almost looks like you're trying to analyze what happens to a given gene in isolation from the other genes - even non-control types - and I'm not sure that's valid. I would say that the specific sequences on a strand of DNA that code for the expression of particular genes ARE the fundamental starting points - and that everything else simply modifies how the gene is expressed. Perhaps I'm still not seeing what you're trying to get at (no surprise, genetics is not my field).
For example, the Boolean network model does not have any "control" genes in that they regulate the various expressions of all the possible regulators. Instead it is a giant spider web of rules, the cell differentiate in this model either through noise or some form of random fluxuations. Therefor, this initial developmental step is in the genes in that certain sets of genes code for certain cell types but the ability to achieve differentiation is not in the genes. The evolvability of the mechanism to me has to lie in the environment that then acts on the genes. The genes are a tool in this sense not managers.
Umm, okay. I'll grant you the evolvability of the system is dependent on environmental factors - after all, that's what natural selection is all about. However, I think I disagree with your statement that the ability to achieve differentiation is not in the genes. There are several interesting current research hypotheses that tend to indicate otherwise. For example,
quote:
Kirschner M, Gerhart J, 1998 "Evolvability", PNAS 95:8420-8427
Evolvability is an organism’s capacity to generate heritable phenotypic variation. Metazoan evolution is marked by great morphological and physiological diversification, although the core genetic, cell biological, and developmental processes are largely conserved. Metazoan diversification has entailed the evolution of various regulatory processes controlling the time, place, and conditions of use of the conserved core processes. These regulatory processes, and certain of the core processes, have special properties relevant to evolutionary change. The properties of versatile protein elements, weak linkage, compartmentation, redundancy, and exploratory behavior reduce the interdependence of components and confer robustness and flexibility on processes during embryonic development and in adult physiology. They also confer evolvability on the organism by reducing constraints on change and allowing the accumulation of nonlethal variation. Evolvability may have been generally selected in the course of selection for robust, flexible processes suitable for complex development and physiology and specifically selected in lineages undergoing repeated radiations.
Another, a bit more extended, treatment is given in Lynn Caporale's popsci book "Darwin in the Genome" (McGraw-Hill, 2002). For a non-specialist like me, this was a thought-provoking book.
I am not sure I actually agree with this. It depends on what you mean by culture or biology. I think every culture while distinct in many arbitrary ways basically falls under the same fundamental model. This model was defined in the human EEA (Environment of Evolutionary Adaptiveness). My point is that the behavioral aspects of humans are an inheritable chunk that can under go selection and have just as much staying power as any DNA based behavior. Other organism probably wouldn't have anything approaching the variability of human behavior but I think you can find simpler examples that begin to foreshadow what you find in primates and specifically humans.
I agree with this. However, I think I need to clarify what I mean by culture: "Culture or civilization, taken in its wide ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society" (Edward Tylor, 1920, quoted in Ehrlich P, 2000 "Human Natures", Penguin Science, page 352). Of course, this definition doesn't permit the existence of non-human "cultures", a conclusion I'm not comfortable with. So to refine it a bit, the way I used "culture" refers to those behavioral attributes that are emergent properties of the interactions between members of social species. Change in human-level complex culture is influenced by mechanism(s) analagous to, but not equivalent to, those involved in natural (phenotype) selection. Although, as culture is based on behavior there are inheritable genetic underpinnings, one of the key differences is that culture can be transmitted laterally as well generationally. Culture - or aspects of it anyway - can ALSO be modified (evolve?) in a single generation, unlike behaviors that are more dependent on genetics, which can mostly only evolve over multiple generations.
I agree exactly. My point is that since the genetic propensity is being based down even in the absence of any possible selection (it is not expressed for multiple generations) probably MOST salamanders have the gene. But even when all the right trigger events are present only a small fraction form the morphology. There does not seem to be any deterministic part in this equation. If it was only gene/environment interaction I would expect to see a much higher percentage of the morph emerging in laboratory conditions.
I'm not sure this necessarily follows. The pattern of cannibal morph expression appears close to what I would expect to see if the allele is maintained in the species at relatively low frequency. Not all, or even most, members of the population would necessarily posess the allele. In addition, the environmental triggers are complex - and can include even the increased probability of inducement of cannibal morphs in populations that already contain cannibal morphs compared with populations that don't. IF there's no trigger present, then there would be no reason for the allele to be under selection - and it would then "hitch-hike" down the generations effected by drift or other stochastic processes. I don't know what linkages there are - i.e., whether the gene complex that creates the cannibal morph is linked to some other set of genes that IS under selective constraint and hence conserved in the population. Tis a puzzlement...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 03-05-2004 12:37 PM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

  
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