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Author Topic:   A barrier to macroevolution & objections to it
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 236 of 303 (349767)
09-17-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
09-17-2006 11:13 AM


Re: The debate is now about the cod allele count
The fact that such mutations occasionally occur is NOT evidence that such mutations may occur in the numbers and quality needed to overcome the effects of the processes that reduce diversity.
That's not an argument, though. That's a weasel phrase. No matter how many mutations we show you, you can always argue that it's "not enough."
Why don't you pick a number? How many mutations per generation are required to keep up with selection, etc.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 09-17-2006 11:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 09-17-2006 11:42 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 245 of 303 (349823)
09-17-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
09-17-2006 11:42 AM


Re: The debate is now about the cod allele count
It's not a matter of "not enough"
Well, are there enough, or aren't there? If you didn't mean to say there weren't enough, then why did you say there weren't enough?
PLEASE not bacteria
If you have an objection to the bacteria studies, you certainly haven't told anybody what it is. Until such time as you're able to express exactly why bacterial studies, long used as model organisms for the study of genetics, are somehow invalid here, they constitute a large line of evidence that you've simply chosen not to address - to pretend like it doesn't even exist, in fact.
Every time I say this I think to myself but that whole idea is wrong anyway, making up for losses is silly when it's the losses that bring about the new traits.
Losses don't bring about new traits. Something is not new simply because it is what is left over.
If I have a full refrigerator, and I throw out all the fresh fruits and vegetables and simply mix together two containers-worth of leftovers, I have not made a new meal. We're still eating leftovers.
New alleles are required for new traits, because over enough time, given a constant number of alleles, all possible allelic sexual combinations are eventually expressed. Simple statistics. You eventually get every possible phenotype just at random, so reducing alleles doesn't get you anything new. Maybe it gets you more of something, maybe less, but neither of those are new.
Genuinely new traits require genuinely new alleles, and mutation is the source of new alleles.
The link about the apparent recovery of alleles in cod is the sort of evidence that is needed, and I'm still waiting to figure out what is actually going on there.
How are you ever going to figure out what that article says if you immediately reject any explanation of it that appears to support evolution? If you're waiting around for someone to explain it to you in a way that undercuts evolution, you're going to be waiting a long time. Evolution is accepted by scientists because the evidence supports it, so when evidence is presented for it, you're simply not going to find a way, except fallaciously or dishonestly, to use that evidence against evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 09-17-2006 11:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 09-17-2006 8:01 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 252 of 303 (349928)
09-18-2006 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
09-17-2006 8:01 PM


Re: The debate is now about the cod allele count
Depends on what you mean by "genuinely new traits."
Traits that hitherto have not been present in the population.
Most novel traits do NOT need anything more than a new combination of alleles already present in the population.
Says you, but that's a statement contrary to both logic and evidence. And you seem to be forgetting the most basic principles of Mendel; namely, that traits as often as not are discreet, independantly-variable aspects controlled at a single genetic locus, not the result of any kind of genetic "mixing." A few traits exhibit that sort of behavior, but many more do not.
"New" is not the same as "left over." Reduction in alleles cannot be the source of truly new traits. And truly new traits are required to explain the diversity of life on Earth in the present and past.

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 Message 247 by Faith, posted 09-17-2006 8:01 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Quetzal, posted 09-18-2006 8:48 AM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 255 of 303 (349958)
09-18-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by mjfloresta
09-18-2006 10:24 AM


Re: The debate is now about the cod allele count
Whether that's true or not seems to be dependent on your underlying assumptions of how much diversity there actually is.
We don't need to assume diversity; we can observe it and measure it. Any disagreement creationists may have in regards to the amount of diversity is simply their refusal, once again, to admit the existence of any fact they find inconvinient to their ideology.

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 Message 254 by mjfloresta, posted 09-18-2006 10:24 AM mjfloresta has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 259 of 303 (349967)
09-18-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by mjfloresta
09-18-2006 12:09 PM


Re: The debate is now about the cod allele count
Starting from the ToE paradigm, the requirement is that non-mutational forces account for all of life's diversity.
I don't understand why you believe this to be the case. It's well-known that the theory of evolution explains the diversity of life on Earth as the result of random mutation and natural selection.
Why would the theory of evolution be required to support something it doesn't state?

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 Message 257 by mjfloresta, posted 09-18-2006 12:09 PM mjfloresta has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 280 of 303 (350015)
09-18-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by mjfloresta
09-18-2006 2:27 PM


Re: I'm Confused
A counter example would be the significant morphological/phenotypic diversity seen among the various dog breeds. Vast, morphological/phenotypic changes that are clearly not the result of mutation but rather non-mutational processes.
I don't see a significant phenotypic diversity among dogs. I see a continuous distribution of traits along a fairly small number of attributes.
I mean, to even suggest that these constrained gamuts represent "vast morphological change" would seem to undercut the YEC contention that animals vary only narrowly within their "kind."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by mjfloresta, posted 09-18-2006 2:27 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by mjfloresta, posted 09-18-2006 3:04 PM crashfrog has not replied

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