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Author Topic:   Fitness: Hueristic or Fundamental to Biology?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 47 (391917)
03-28-2007 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
03-27-2007 10:22 AM


how about ...
Let's try to break the recursive cycle ... with a slight change to the "formula"
fitness of a genotype = (average fecundity) X (fraction that reproduce).
How many offspring the offspring have (their average fecundity) are a measure of the fitness of the offspring and not of the original parent. Thus the fitness of different genes could change with every generation. This is not a problem, rather it is the way it should be.
Hope that helps.
Edited by RAZD, : added rather

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 47 (391948)
03-28-2007 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
03-27-2007 10:22 AM


The ability of the offspring to themselves produce offspring would have to be in the definition, or else we come to the absurd conclusion that producing a large number of sterile offspring is the "fit" thing to do.
The ability of some of the offspring to themselves reproduce is sufficient if it can result in the total number of offspring in the population being more than the previous generation.
Think of ants and termites and bees, where a large proportion of the population is sterile, yet they are successful because the colony as a whole works to make it possible to reproduce the colony from generation to generation -- of the workers and of the queens. The workers contribute in ways that the queens could not and would be vulnerable without, thus increasing her fitness and the fitness of the colony as a whole.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 47 (391993)
03-28-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
03-28-2007 10:15 AM


rates of change proportional to fitness
We run into a slight hitch when calculating the fitness of a sterile insect genotype though. Since it has no offspring - it has a fitness of zero.
But isn't the genotype the same, just whether or not the egg is fertilized or fed a specific nutrient? (thus it is more of a phenotype than genotype difference)
I think you have to look at reproductive units rather than individuals in these cases - the female doesn't function without the drones once she's built her reproductive nest, so they are extensions of her reproductive unit.
... a sterile insect genotype though. Since it has no offspring - it has a fitness of zero.
And the fitness of the queen would be low given that most offspring are the sterile drones and only some potential kings and queens, probably less than 0.1 by the above metric, yet they are able to expand and fill new areas easily. If you count the hive ability to produce new hives you get a different picture.
This fitness metric can be applied to the whole hierarchy from gene all the way up to kingdom, and beyond depending on your chosen hierarchy.
Yes, but. To me it has to be a snapshop metric: how is fitness measured today, and then measure it again tomorrow: things change in the environment and fitness changes with it.
Message 21
An allelic fitness measurement could be defined as the rate of change of an allele's frequency. This then ties fitness directly and inextricably to the concept of evolution.
So if we graph the frequency of alleles then at any time we can take the slope of the curves for each one and judge their relative fitness by their rate of change at that moment. You can also graph the rate of change of the rate of change (second derivative) to see whether fitness is increasing or decreasing.
That works for me, and would seem to answer the problem of the hive species as well: it doesn't matter which specific individuals the fitness comes from in the overall population for the selection to work.
This can also be applied to observable features within a population, the physical manifestations that breeders use in their selection, that species use for sexual selection, the changes in beak size that match fitness in the Galapagos Finches, and the changes in proportions of light\dark color variations in the Peppered Moths.
Thanks.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 47 (392005)
03-28-2007 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
03-28-2007 1:27 PM


Re: rates of change proportional to fitness
Odd - that unfit entities can spread so well
Or the metric doesn't really measure fitness.
Agreed - it all depends on how much resolution you require. Sometimes, to find out what is happening we need to zoom all the way into the alllele, but oftentimes we can look at how traits change to deduce indirectly how the alleles change.
You can pick your resolution for the period you find the slope of the curve over. The nice thing about this is that it automatically averages all the individuals and all the {alleles\variations\features}. If you are worried about sudden change causing extinction you can zoom in on that effect.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 47 (392050)
03-28-2007 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by JustinC
03-28-2007 4:07 PM


mountains out of molehills
See, I think I can describe NS fine without invoking the concept of 'fitness.'
You just replaced "fitness" with the definition of "fitness"
Message 11
Chiroptera writes:
It describes the capability of an individual of certain genotype to reproduce, and usually is equal to the proportion of the individual's genes in all the genes of the next generation.
take the second definition, and add fitness
redundant not a tautology.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : = not -

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