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Author Topic:   Tautology and Natural Selection
John
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 130 (47512)
07-26-2003 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by JustinC
07-25-2003 10:32 PM


quote:
I would say natural selection is non-random reproductive success of organisms. Since it is non-random, then one should be able to determine, in theory, which organisms will have reproductive success before the fact. Right?
In a perfect world, we could get very close. We'd have to have perfect knowledge of every relevant variable-- weather patterns, etc. Needless to say, we have nowhere near that level of knowledge. Then, we'd have to restrict the prediction to the few generations only. If we reach too far into the future the system will change and what was adaptive ceases to be so. An animal adapted to ice, wouldn't do well where I live.
quote:
But if fitness is defined by the post hoc analysis, then I think that only strengthens the claim of tautology, i.e survivors survive.
hmmmm.... survivors DO survive. It is a tautology. Not all tautology is fallacious. Here is a tautology for you. 1 = 1. Tautology? Yup. Fallacious? You tell me.
A fallacious tautology is a form of argument where one draws a conclusion which is assumed in the premises. The key is that it must be an ARGUMENT. Axioms-- such as that of identity ( 1 = 1 )-- and observations-- that critter died, that one didn't-- don't count. They AREN'T arguments.
Back to the topic. It is hard to argue with the idea that the survivors did in fact survive. By definition, if you survive you are a survivor. It isn't an argument, but an observation. The question then becomes, "Why did these survivors survive, and the other animals did not?" The answer is that each individual animal is slightly different than any other, and these slight differences give some animals an edge.
quote:
But it seems like it should logically be possible to determine what traits are more fit.
With perfect knowledge and in relation to a particular environment, perhaps so. Notice this is relative fitness, not absolute. In your fish/gila monster example, you drop both into a desert. The gila monster wins. But a hundred thousand years later, the desert floods. Suddenly the gila monster's 'good' adaptations are no longer all that good.
quote:
I don't know if I can agree with that. The optimal optical(Poet and didn't even know it) system would be made in reference to the interactions with the environment and within the organism. How would comparing two different systems to each other determine which is best unless there is a reference to how they function in the environment.
It doesn't matter how well one can see, if everything else is blind. You can have 1% of 20/20 vision and be king of the hill if everything else has no eyes.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by JustinC, posted 07-25-2003 10:32 PM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by JustinC, posted 07-26-2003 5:58 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 130 (48006)
07-30-2003 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by JustinC
07-26-2003 5:58 PM


quote:
Whose arguing tautologies are fallacious? I'm not.
Usually, when people complain about tautologies, it is because of a perception that there is something 'wrong' with them.
quote:
But tautologies do not make predictions and are not scientific statements.
Tautologies don't make predictions. Definitions don't predict. They just identify. That is all that is going on when you say that 'survivors survive' -- you are pointing out the relevant subset of creatures. Why this subset? The reason is reproduction. Dead creatures don't reproduce and are hence irrelevant to evolution.
quote:
Saying "Survivors survive" doesn't give any clue as to the direction of evolution.
What direction?
If you mean that 'survivors survive' doesn't tell us which adaptations lead to higher survival rates, then of course it doesn't. You have to examine the survivors to find out. I think you are trying to drag way too much out of the first step of the analysis.
quote:
The statement would be true under any scenerio, i.e. if all organisms survive randomly.
Well, if it is always true, it is a very good place to start. Then you ask, "Why?" "Is there a reason some survive and others do not?"
quote:
I wouldn't even say its an observation, it's a logical necessity.
One hundred critters are born. You tag them and release them. A year later, you find all the tags but only 25 are attached to living animals. This is not observation?
quote:
It's good for a definition, but not good for science.[
I dare you to do science without definitions. Hell, I dare you to think about anything without starting with definitions. Why are you downplaying this? Consider. We want to study light. What is light? Well, you have to define it somehow, otherwise you can't move on to further study. "Light is what illuminates the Earth during the day." "Light is what candles emit." All very circular definitions really. It is unavoidable. You seem to object to this step.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by JustinC, posted 07-26-2003 5:58 PM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by JustinC, posted 07-30-2003 12:29 PM John has not replied

  
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